Beware the rumors- Friendly advice for MS3s

By Guest on Sunday, 26 February 2006

Posted in Match Center

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So I think it's time that this forum shifts its focus back onto the MS3 as they begin this whole process that us MS4 are completing.

In thinking about the interview season, one thing that has troubled me is how much the "reliable inside scoop" on many programs has just been plain wrong. Most of us make decisions about where to apply, where to interview, and even how to rank based on what others tell us. This is unavoidable, but it is also dangerous. Of the places that I saw, the only interviews that I left feeling that my preinterview impression was on par with my post interview impression were interviews at my home program and the places that I did aways. What does that tell you? Does it mean that everyone is a malicious liar? Of course not. Some people are, but most often the problem is that everyone filters reality through their own eyes. Ultimately the only reality that matters is yours. Take everything with a grain of salt.
Common rumors that I found to be at least partially false:

UCSF is completely malignant: not really. the hospital is dumpy, and the spine service is undercovered, which makes for a shitty experience for the junior residents. Most rotating med students are on this service which is why most sub-Is leave SF feeling like it is a malignant place.

Yale is not a top place: Totally untrue. One of the best places I saw. Great lifestyle, good early operative experience, great didactics, supportive faculty, great research opportunities, new haven better than you would think.

HSS residents don't operate: this is one of the biggest lies out there. If anything, they operate too much. Operate early and often. Other rumors about this program are at least partially true (not enough clinic, limited trauma experience). Trauma is an issue for all new york programs and it is something that those who want to go to manhattan will deal with no matter which program they go to.

Harvard residents don't operate, are sub par, etc.: Again, totally untrue. I thought that Harvard and Wash U were the most complete training programs that I saw. Other things such as it being a big program and feeling less initmate than other programs is an issue but were mitigated by the fact that the Harvard residents were some of the nicest that I encountered anywhere

Miami is a program for "uber-ortho jocks" and playboys: Not true again. Yes, they like to have a good time but they are just a good group of guys and girls who believe in the idea that getting along with your co residents and supporting one another is beneficial to all. This is a great hard working and excellent training program filled with bright and motivated residents.

Stanford is sub par, only is popular because it's in Cali: Again, a pleasant surprise. Whoever ends up here is going to be in a program that is clearly on the up and up. Very dedicated to becoming an academic powerhouse (still some way to go though). Good balance of clinic and OR, great residents. Many people that I know are picky Stanford over SF because they believe that Stanford is quickly becoming comparable in terms of overall quality.

Penn isn't a top tier place: There have been a number of threads on this subject. This is completely false. Penn is an unbelievable program with great residents and one of the most complete training experiences out there. A great program that is going to get better and better over the next few years.

There are more, but you all get the point. Most programs are great in their own right. The negative things that you hear should always be taken with a healthly dose of skepticism. Consider the source of the critique, and then look to see if there are alternative opinions. There are differences in the quality of programs, but don't underestimate the effect of non ortho issues on your ability to be happy in a particular program. If you have a compelling reason to consider a region or city, don't dismiss a program simply because someone heard that the residents don't operate, or a program didn't appear on orthogate's "top 20 list". Take the time to figure it out for yourself.

You make some very good points, ESPECIALLY the point of making up your own opinion and not just going with what you are told. Also the nonacademic factors should not be ignored (lifestyle, location, cooperation b/t residents, etc). Also keep in mind that although the "culture" of a training institution may linger, things change as new classes go through and new staff docs come on board. Some places changed quite a bit when the 80 hour rule came into play. All the attendings at my program comment on how different a group of residents we currently have vs 10 yrs ago, so someone interviewing here now vs then would likely get a very different perspective. Be sure to check on the age of the info you hear, and how specific it is. "All the guys at ACME U are assholes" is not as helpful a comment as "they have had 5 residents quit in the last 10 years"
I am going to play devils advocate for a moment for the sake of a good discussion on this forum. I am assuming you are making these blanket statements based on your interview day at these places? That is maybe 5 or 6 hours at most. Thats not a lot of time to get a great feel for all the ins and outs of a place (hence the value of away rotations). I am not saying that you were fooled by all these places, but you are basically doing exactly the same thing you were bashing, that is making comments/rumors on places based on limited data/what you were shown on interview day. Obviously you may have rotated at some of these places, if so then your perspective on those places should be regarded as a "higher level of evidence" to use nerdy terms.
Good Luck all you MS3's, I dont evny you.

Guest

20 years ago

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#51129

I don't evny them either.

Guest

20 years ago

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#51130

I agree with both posts. Looking back and I can still say in all honesty other than the places I rotated at, I had no real idea about any other program. You just learn to be a great bullsh&*er. I had some "rumors" from this board, which I will admit do influence your initial thoughs about a program because from the time you step foot in the door on interview day you are recalling some of what you read/heard to see for yourself. However, all those rumors are not substanciated because everyone has on their game face at interviews. And rightly so, everyone you talk to on those days is doing orthopedics, something they love, so yes they may have liked somewhere else better for whatever reason (name, location, significant other, research oppurtunities, blah blah blah...etc) but it still ain't that bad wherever they are at, its still ortho and they're livin' the dream baby. I bitch my fair share about the twisted system in which we live our lives but in the end getting a spot is all one giant game and should be approached as such. How great would it be if you could really answer the question, why do you want to come here? with, "because it cost $10 or whatever to apply and you bit on giving me an interview." "Yes, I read your web site, didn't tell me anything anybody else's site told me, yes I read orthogate and asked my residents and everyone was cool and every program has strengths and weaknesses but in the end why do you want me". Or if they ask "what particular field are you interested in?". Lets see, most students have done 2-3 months ortho and consider there is joints, spine, peds, hand, foot and ankle, onc, trauma, research, whatever else superspecialized field you can think of. So that question is absolutly retarted. As well as the one about, "where do you see yoursef in 10 years?". I'd love to say, "in 10 years I'm gona be sittin' in your chair, so you had better not slack for one second because I'm gona be on you like stink on sh*& boy!" Give me a break. What would be really cool would be if there were garenteed ways in, like if you scored >270 or could bench 350 or own a heismen.
I would say a better way to do it or at least a way to take away some of the cloudyness to the picture is to let programs offer their own competitive salaries and do away with the match. Liken it to this, "if you get yourself into big trouble are you gona go to the lawyer down the street with a dead plant in the waiting room (because he is a lawyer) or are you gona go to the guy downtown in the penthouse suite. The guy in the penthouse suite is there for a reason. Let the free market drive the competetivness of our system and take away the regulations. When JD's graduate the law firms don't say well, lets all get paid 40 grand give or take and see who wants to go where with the hope that in ten years we will sort it out ourselves in terms of who if competitive. This way if you are gona pay a resident 60-80 grand you had better be damn sure he is the smartest guy you can get and not a guy with ok scores who seemed cool and worked hard and all the bull because anyone can put on a smile for a month long audition.
My point I guess is, getting a spot is always a game and never forget it. Thats for the 3's for us 4' our fate is sealed and "if you find yourself riding alone in green fields with the sun on your back, don't worry because you are in Elecion and you're already dead!"

Guest

20 years ago

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#51131

Just about the best advice that I can give for you MS3's out there is to 1) and this was already said... be wary of what others say and form your own opinions about programs based on what you learn yourself, and 2) obviously weigh what you hear depending on who the person is and what their experience is. For example, I would take the opinion of someone who spent an entire month rotating at ACME U versus that of someone who is just perpetuating the grape vine talk and has never spent time there. Also, you have to remember - something that is clear now for those of us who have been through interview season - every interview session is going to be a sales pitch for the program to sell themselves to you (in some way). If you're lucky, they'll be truthful about their strengths and weaknesses, and they'll paint a picture of their program that is neither here nor there, but as a certain "fit" for the people who they would like to recruit. Believe me, after several of these, they all start the look the same: hospitals, clinics, wards, department offices, etc. You have to decide for yourself where your best fit is: academic vs. community, single residents vs. family-oriented, operative vs. clinic (most program try to balance, but some are mostly one or the other), etc etc.

IMPORTANT - Do your research! Do away rotations, find students from your school who have rotated at these places or past students who have matched there, talk to faculty members who trained there or who are well-acquainted with the people there, get resident e-mail addresses and start asking questions, etc. Don't go purely on word of mouth, or you may be pleasantly (or not so) surprised.

Guest

20 years ago

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#51132

I just got to say, most of the "rumors" that I heard here on orthogate were actually true. The stereotypes of Miami, UCLA, USC and a few other schools that I got a ton of in depth knowledge about were like 95% accurate. I'll give my take on each of the schools when I match, but I got to say, which do you think would be more accurate, information from a student who just matched at another school (i.e. on the matched threads that happen every year) or from a program trying to convince the applicants that they are the best program on earth??

Guest

20 years ago

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#51133

It's like everything... some things here are dead-on true... and some things are completely false. The most important reason is perception... what one person perceives a program to be is usually based on their limited experience. The other reason is that this is an anonymous board... you never know what people's objectives are when they state something is true.

As an applicant, I believe your best advice will come from people you know personally who have roatated at an institution of interest, people you know who's home institution is the place of interest, former med students at your institution who've gone someplace your interested in, and finally current residents at the program of interest.

That being said, orthogate is an extremely useful tool as an applicant. Just remember that it is a very biased board in terms of who posts here. Orthogate does not represent the average applicant... and in my experience it is also fairly regionally biased in its information (there seems to be far greater east coast compared with west coast information and representation)

Good Luck to the MS3's

Guest

20 years ago

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#51134

I am a pgy-2 and have been through the whole process not all that long ago. bottom line for future ortho residents......do your research....rumors fly through every program out there...the problem is, we are all different, have different personalities and different goals......some of us like operating...some of us like research......some of us are looking for the perfect balance.......

these rumors about programs start when someone who is more academic rotates at a clinically-based program and vice-versa...they come out saying how that program sucks and manages to only point out all negative aspects.....and people, for some reason, listen to that....

you will only truly know the in's and out's of a program by rotating there....not just interviewing...most programs can put on a great show for 2 days of interviews, but can't possibly keep it up for a 4 week rotation...
with that said, i know u need advice about programs before selecting where u rotate and apply...and that advice generally comes from other students or residents......but dont base your decision on it.......do your own research......take time to rotate at places u TRULY think u want to end up at.......as anyone can tell u in here, one of the biggest things during a programs rank list is a candidate that rotated at that institution.......

good luck with the process....it truly does suck........
by the way, glad i am not an MS 3 right now.........just kidding...its not that bad..if u really want it, u will get it.....

PS...good luck with the match next month

Guest

20 years ago

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#51135

I can't imagine what I'd be thinking as an MS3 right now. This board has become so consumed by negativity as the match draws near that it's driving me nuts. I've heard so many posts lately from every jaded, burnt out, biased, nervous, and malcontent poster out there. I just refuse to believe that everyone thinks that the process is a drag, everyone is lying, everyone is out to get us, and everyone is miserable.

I enjoyed the interview process. I enjoyed my away rotations. I generally believe what people told me on the interview circuit. And I don't believe everything I read. While I'm definitely tired of waiting, I'm very excited about the next few months and next five years.

The problem is not the information that's out there. The problem arises when people read that information and interpret it as gospel truth. If you're intelligent and know much about people, it's not that difficult to figure out. Everyone seems so appalled that on the interview trail everyone talks up their program and has nothing but good things to say. Gee...shocking. What do you expect them to say? Of course everyone is going to be positive.

I always laugh when people post on here asking how people would rank programs. My advice is don't ask just anyone what they think, unless you're prepared to take that information and realize that it's one person's opinion. I think the best impressions I got were from my advisor, other residents, and my fellow applicants- not all of them, but the ones I know well and respect. They are the ones whose impressions I listen to.

rwbrhp29

Guest

20 years ago

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#51136