Mr Sparkle
Registered User
Posts: 1
(5/16/01 11:27:28 am)
Reply
Number of Away Rotations
I am currently scheduled for 3 four-week ortho sub-internships and an additional four weeks at my home
school. Is this too many? Is it frowned upon to do this many orthopaedic rotations? How many away
rotations do most applicants arrange? Any advice here, would be greatly appreciated.
Ortho2002
Registered User
Posts: 16
(5/16/01 12:59:05 pm)
Reply
Same here.
I think it depends on how strong of an applicant you are. I personally have three aways and one with my
home institution, all in ortho. I just wanted to get a flavor of a bunch of different systems to figure out
what I really like and to know what to look for on interviews. 2/3 of the aways are at places that are
reaching for the stars, but I figure, what the hell?! Stranger things have happened! So, to answer your
question, if you are set on ortho and feel that you need to get your face seen at a bunch of places, do
whatever it takes! I would like to hear anyone else's opinion on this one also.
OrthoStud
Registered User
Posts: 13
(5/16/01 1:57:11 pm)
Reply
rotations
I'm doing 3 ortho electives ...1 home, 2 away. Others in my class are doing up to 6...I think they're
crazy. Not because I feel confident, but because I think I would be burnt out after 3 months of working
like an animal. Just my thoughts.
Orthomatched
Registered User
Posts: 2
(5/16/01 6:39:47 pm)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
Three externships in orthopaedics--in addition to your home rotation--seems like an awful lot, especially
if they are all 4 weeks long. On the interview trail, I only met one medical student who did three
externships (maybe other students weren't willing to admit that they did). Have some confidence! One
externship is enough to get a "flavor" of how other programs differ from your home school. Two
externships is more than enough, I think. I do NOT recommend doing externships that are only two
weeks. Do you want to show the program that you're serious about them or not? Two weeks is not
enough time to show your stuff.
OrthoDoc
ezOP
Posts: 47
(5/16/01 7:41:28 pm)
Reply
Community Supporter
Away rotations
If you are not a stellar candidate, then 3 away rotations plus a home rotation may be what you need to
get your foot in the door at a program somewhere. However, that is alot of time in orthopedics. You will
be spending a little over four years devoted to orthopedics during residency. I would suggest spending
some of your elective time in areas that can be useful to you down the road like infectious disease,
rheumatology, radiology, surgical intensive care, etc...
slk
Registered User
Posts: 29
(5/16/01 11:24:34 pm)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
I did 3 aways after my home, and thought it worked out pretty well. I talked to people who said they did
rotations and found the program sucked, or they didn't really click with the residents, and they were
more or less wasted. i had the option to do it at my school, so I figured why not.. they were more fun
than doing anything else, and the more you do, the more programs you have the extra "in" at. I ended
up ranking them 1-2-3, and matched at one that I rotated at.
mmrtjrajr
Registered User
Posts: 2
(5/17/01 3:39:49 pm)
Reply
Away Rotations
Away rotations are not a necessity to getting a great residency spot. After much debate, I did not do
any away rotations, still got 11 interviews and matched at my No. 1 choice. I don't necessarily recommend
this approach, but I did want to actually take advantage of my last year of medical school to learn as
much as possible outside of Ortho, including Radiology, SICU, Plastics, Trauma Surg, Peds Surg, and
Infectious Disease. Also, I have three small kids and did not want to be away from home that long. The
bottom line-don't assume that an away will guarantee you a spot, work your butt off during fourth year
rotations, great letters can make a huge difference, and try to have fun during the whole process. It'll be
over before you know it.
Mr Sparkle
Registered User
Posts: 2
(5/17/01 5:31:42 pm)
Reply
Re: Away Rotations
Congrats! Matching at your No. 1 pick (for that matter, matching period)is a great accomplishment. As far
as not doing any away rotations goes, you were probably a stellar applicant. Let me guess: AOA, 250
Step 1, honored every rotation in the third year, tons of research and publications. Am I right? My
situation is different. I sure as hell ain't AOA. First two years performance was pretty average. Decent
Step 1. Mostly high passes with a couple of honors in the third year. About 6 weeks of non-productive
research. If you were sitting in my shoes, and didn't have 3 kids at home, would you do away rotations?
Let me know what you think.
bonehead
Registered User
Posts: 3
(5/18/01 5:30:03 am)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
Hmmm . . . good arguments on all sides. But here's a new one:
I'm not doing away rotations, partly because of you all (no offense). Spending a month in a strange
hospital, with other students gunning for the same spots, really turns me off. I'd rather stay on home
turf and get kick-ass letters from the folks I already know, including the chairman. Besides, the secret
truth is that most spots go to students who did NOT rotate at their matched place (either do the math,
or just ask an RD); that excludes, of course, home-school favoritism. The top students are going to
match where they want, regardless of where they rotate. The rest of us mortals pick up what's left, and
thus we might as well stay home and get great letters, which will go far at ANY place.
Thoughts?
Ortho2002
Registered User
Posts: 17
(5/18/01 6:36:14 am)
Reply
aways
I still think that if you have even a minor connection, you should work that to your advantage. I honestly
don't think that I will match at any of my three aways. However, it seems like the more people you know,
the better off you are. For instance, even though I may not 'click' with any of the programs where I am
doing aways, it is almost certain that at other interviews these rotations will come up. Here is where the
good ol boy network kicks into play. "Oh, I see that you rotated with Dr. X, (laughing), I had a good time
with him during my training". You have then made an instant connection and thus become a 'known'
entity. Anyone else have thoughts?
g2001
Registered User
Posts: 6
(5/18/01 9:17:43 am)
Reply
Away rotations
I recommend doing at least one away rotation just to see how other places run their residency. You can
pick a program that's not too far away and put in a solid month and maybe pick up another strong ortho
letter of rec(non-ortho letters mean very little.) It is tough going to a new hospital and trying to impress
people in the month that you're there but it may get you an advantage over other applicants. You will be
someone they know and worked with rather than just another applicant they spent 10-15 minutes
interviewing. For what it's worth, I matched at my No. 1 choice at a program I did not rotate at, so it is not
a necessity. Good luck.
g2001
Registered User
Posts: 7
(5/18/01 9:22:24 am)
Reply
Away
One more thing. I think 3 aways is too much. You will be pretty bored after a while because you're going
to be doing most of the retracting and scut and it gets tiring after a while. I would do a month of
something non-ortho, take advantage of other electives like SICU, ER, Radiology or Trauma. But do what
you think is best for YOU, in the end it's your butt on the line.Later.
TR1
Registered User
Posts: 16
(5/18/01 12:08:48 pm)
Reply
Aways
I did 3 aways in addition to one home. I wrestled with all the issues presented in the previous posts. In
short, I could not have had a better experience. Living in different parts of the country and
meeting/scrubbing in with all the "legendary" attendings was an opportunity that I will never forget. And
the workload was not that difficult.
I did all 3 aways at "reach" programs, and matched at one of them. I received phone calls from each
chairman and was "guaranteed" spots at each program. There is no way that I would have matched there
if I did not do an away rotation, and I was considered to be a "strong" applicant by traditional standards.
In addition, it was great learning how the top hospitals operate. All 5 of the "top 10 programs" (see
previous posts) where I interviewed take roughly 75% of the new class from 4th year rotators at their
program.
In short, each strategy has it's benefits. But I have had a nice, relaxing and effective 4th year. Best of
luck to all.
Bonebuster
Registered User
Posts: 9
(5/18/01 8:49:09 pm)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
Three away rotations in addition to one home rotation is in my opinion way too much. When I applied,
the chairman at my medical school told us that whenever he sees applicants with more than a total of
three ortho rotations he views them as suspect. It draws attention to your application indicating that
you do not have confidence in yourself as an applicant. That tells residency directors a VERY strong
message about you. Also, they want applicants who are interesting, not people who just spent their
whole fourth year rotating in ortho. I personally did two aways and one at my home program. I matched
at one of my away institutions, my No. 1 choice. So there is no doubt that away rotations make a
difference, but too many will raise questions.
Mr Sparkle
Registered User
Posts: 3
(5/20/01 12:15:58 am)
Reply
Re:
Bonebuster, did you have a third-year rotation in Ortho or does your school only offer Ortho in the
fourth-year?
slk
Registered User
Posts: 30
(5/20/01 6:03:32 pm)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
And one MORE thing.. I as well rotated at three reaches and matched at one of them.. One of the letters
I got from one of the places, which the attending let me see before I left was real nice, so I sent it every
program. I got a many comments on it, but one interviewer said, "Your home letters are good, but
usually attendings want to pump up students from their own program. This letter from a guy who only
had a month to get to know you, has no reason not to be objective, and said THIS means a lot more."
Along the same lines, I've heard more than once that home chairmen letters carry the least weight,
because chairmen rarely write luke warm letters for their own students.
Puddy
Registered User
Posts: 7
(5/20/01 7:51:09 pm)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
Dudes - and dudettes, I presume - what medical schools do you all go to that allows a 4th year
curriculum of 4 or even 6 (6?!!!) rotations in orthopaedics? I'm allowed to do 2 months of ortho (or any
surgical specialty for that matter) and if I want to do a third, I need to use one of the scheduled off
months (interviews, boards, etc.) to do an extra month in something non-ortho. This even includes a
month of ortho research if you want to get credit for it. I'm not saying I agree with the system at my
school, and you can perhaps sense my slight envy, but anything more than three months seems
excessive to me also. Then again, every program states how important it is to do a month there if you're
serious about getting a spot there. Herein lies the dilemma, my neurotic friends. For what it's worth, I
did decide to do one "home" and one away month.
OrthoStud
Registered User
Posts: 15
(5/20/01 9:37:58 pm)
Reply
Beat this dead horse...
Yes...my school has a similar policy to limit the number of Ortho rotations. But there are ways around it
here, and some of my classmates have quite an impressive sphincter tone...you can do 1 home ortho, 2
away orthos....but we have 2 vacation months...and can use those as aways if you choose...if you do 2
week away rotations...that adds up. The ones whose sphincter tone is not conducive to having bowel
movements do 2 weeks during Christmas vacation.
Bonebuster
Registered User
Posts: 10
(5/21/01 12:34:52 am)
Reply
Re: Re:
Mr Sparkle,
In my school can do ortho in your elective block if u choose to. Many don't do this since their elective
block ends up being early on in the year or before their surgery rotation. I ended up doing ortho the
very last rotation in my third year, and then doing two aways in my first two block in fourth year. Hope
that helps.
BB
bonepain
Registered User
Posts: 18
(5/22/01 9:26:34 pm)
Reply
I am too lazy
You know, I have been hearing about this away rotation stuff also.
I don't think I am going to do one, mainly because I am too lazy to get all the paperwork together. Man,
what a pain in the ass.
I suppose it is in my best interest to do so, however.
eggghead
Registered User
Posts: 1
(6/12/01 10:37:23 am)
Reply
open doors
I think those of you who are rationalizing not doing aways are not only lazy, but afraid. Yeah sure, aways
are hard, stressful, and a little scary, but if you think you are capable of doing ortho then you better
have the energy and nutsack to get off you ass, go somewhere new, and do something tough.
If you weigh all the risks and benefits, its crazy not to do aways esp if you are a normal candidate
(meaning score below 250 and not junior kiss ass AOA). Aways will get you interviews at those programs
that would normally throw your app in the trash. There seems to be a randomness in terms of who gets
interviews where. So even if you are a really strong candidate, you could get interviews almost
everywhere except the one or two you were really interested in. Doing the away guarantees youlll get
that interview unless you really do something wrong or your personality sucks.
All this BS about 3 rotations being excessive and how it looks to chairmen never came up this yyr at one
interview i went to or heard of. Every person I know (from my school and others I met on interviews)
who matched at a really strong program or got their 1st choice, did aways at that place.
Be brave and good luck.
Registered User
Posts: 1
(5/16/01 11:27:28 am)
Reply
Number of Away Rotations
I am currently scheduled for 3 four-week ortho sub-internships and an additional four weeks at my home
school. Is this too many? Is it frowned upon to do this many orthopaedic rotations? How many away
rotations do most applicants arrange? Any advice here, would be greatly appreciated.
Ortho2002
Registered User
Posts: 16
(5/16/01 12:59:05 pm)
Reply
Same here.
I think it depends on how strong of an applicant you are. I personally have three aways and one with my
home institution, all in ortho. I just wanted to get a flavor of a bunch of different systems to figure out
what I really like and to know what to look for on interviews. 2/3 of the aways are at places that are
reaching for the stars, but I figure, what the hell?! Stranger things have happened! So, to answer your
question, if you are set on ortho and feel that you need to get your face seen at a bunch of places, do
whatever it takes! I would like to hear anyone else's opinion on this one also.
OrthoStud
Registered User
Posts: 13
(5/16/01 1:57:11 pm)
Reply
rotations
I'm doing 3 ortho electives ...1 home, 2 away. Others in my class are doing up to 6...I think they're
crazy. Not because I feel confident, but because I think I would be burnt out after 3 months of working
like an animal. Just my thoughts.
Orthomatched
Registered User
Posts: 2
(5/16/01 6:39:47 pm)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
Three externships in orthopaedics--in addition to your home rotation--seems like an awful lot, especially
if they are all 4 weeks long. On the interview trail, I only met one medical student who did three
externships (maybe other students weren't willing to admit that they did). Have some confidence! One
externship is enough to get a "flavor" of how other programs differ from your home school. Two
externships is more than enough, I think. I do NOT recommend doing externships that are only two
weeks. Do you want to show the program that you're serious about them or not? Two weeks is not
enough time to show your stuff.
OrthoDoc
ezOP
Posts: 47
(5/16/01 7:41:28 pm)
Reply
Community Supporter
Away rotations
If you are not a stellar candidate, then 3 away rotations plus a home rotation may be what you need to
get your foot in the door at a program somewhere. However, that is alot of time in orthopedics. You will
be spending a little over four years devoted to orthopedics during residency. I would suggest spending
some of your elective time in areas that can be useful to you down the road like infectious disease,
rheumatology, radiology, surgical intensive care, etc...
slk
Registered User
Posts: 29
(5/16/01 11:24:34 pm)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
I did 3 aways after my home, and thought it worked out pretty well. I talked to people who said they did
rotations and found the program sucked, or they didn't really click with the residents, and they were
more or less wasted. i had the option to do it at my school, so I figured why not.. they were more fun
than doing anything else, and the more you do, the more programs you have the extra "in" at. I ended
up ranking them 1-2-3, and matched at one that I rotated at.
mmrtjrajr
Registered User
Posts: 2
(5/17/01 3:39:49 pm)
Reply
Away Rotations
Away rotations are not a necessity to getting a great residency spot. After much debate, I did not do
any away rotations, still got 11 interviews and matched at my No. 1 choice. I don't necessarily recommend
this approach, but I did want to actually take advantage of my last year of medical school to learn as
much as possible outside of Ortho, including Radiology, SICU, Plastics, Trauma Surg, Peds Surg, and
Infectious Disease. Also, I have three small kids and did not want to be away from home that long. The
bottom line-don't assume that an away will guarantee you a spot, work your butt off during fourth year
rotations, great letters can make a huge difference, and try to have fun during the whole process. It'll be
over before you know it.
Mr Sparkle
Registered User
Posts: 2
(5/17/01 5:31:42 pm)
Reply
Re: Away Rotations
Congrats! Matching at your No. 1 pick (for that matter, matching period)is a great accomplishment. As far
as not doing any away rotations goes, you were probably a stellar applicant. Let me guess: AOA, 250
Step 1, honored every rotation in the third year, tons of research and publications. Am I right? My
situation is different. I sure as hell ain't AOA. First two years performance was pretty average. Decent
Step 1. Mostly high passes with a couple of honors in the third year. About 6 weeks of non-productive
research. If you were sitting in my shoes, and didn't have 3 kids at home, would you do away rotations?
Let me know what you think.
bonehead
Registered User
Posts: 3
(5/18/01 5:30:03 am)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
Hmmm . . . good arguments on all sides. But here's a new one:
I'm not doing away rotations, partly because of you all (no offense). Spending a month in a strange
hospital, with other students gunning for the same spots, really turns me off. I'd rather stay on home
turf and get kick-ass letters from the folks I already know, including the chairman. Besides, the secret
truth is that most spots go to students who did NOT rotate at their matched place (either do the math,
or just ask an RD); that excludes, of course, home-school favoritism. The top students are going to
match where they want, regardless of where they rotate. The rest of us mortals pick up what's left, and
thus we might as well stay home and get great letters, which will go far at ANY place.
Thoughts?
Ortho2002
Registered User
Posts: 17
(5/18/01 6:36:14 am)
Reply
aways
I still think that if you have even a minor connection, you should work that to your advantage. I honestly
don't think that I will match at any of my three aways. However, it seems like the more people you know,
the better off you are. For instance, even though I may not 'click' with any of the programs where I am
doing aways, it is almost certain that at other interviews these rotations will come up. Here is where the
good ol boy network kicks into play. "Oh, I see that you rotated with Dr. X, (laughing), I had a good time
with him during my training". You have then made an instant connection and thus become a 'known'
entity. Anyone else have thoughts?
g2001
Registered User
Posts: 6
(5/18/01 9:17:43 am)
Reply
Away rotations
I recommend doing at least one away rotation just to see how other places run their residency. You can
pick a program that's not too far away and put in a solid month and maybe pick up another strong ortho
letter of rec(non-ortho letters mean very little.) It is tough going to a new hospital and trying to impress
people in the month that you're there but it may get you an advantage over other applicants. You will be
someone they know and worked with rather than just another applicant they spent 10-15 minutes
interviewing. For what it's worth, I matched at my No. 1 choice at a program I did not rotate at, so it is not
a necessity. Good luck.
g2001
Registered User
Posts: 7
(5/18/01 9:22:24 am)
Reply
Away
One more thing. I think 3 aways is too much. You will be pretty bored after a while because you're going
to be doing most of the retracting and scut and it gets tiring after a while. I would do a month of
something non-ortho, take advantage of other electives like SICU, ER, Radiology or Trauma. But do what
you think is best for YOU, in the end it's your butt on the line.Later.
TR1
Registered User
Posts: 16
(5/18/01 12:08:48 pm)
Reply
Aways
I did 3 aways in addition to one home. I wrestled with all the issues presented in the previous posts. In
short, I could not have had a better experience. Living in different parts of the country and
meeting/scrubbing in with all the "legendary" attendings was an opportunity that I will never forget. And
the workload was not that difficult.
I did all 3 aways at "reach" programs, and matched at one of them. I received phone calls from each
chairman and was "guaranteed" spots at each program. There is no way that I would have matched there
if I did not do an away rotation, and I was considered to be a "strong" applicant by traditional standards.
In addition, it was great learning how the top hospitals operate. All 5 of the "top 10 programs" (see
previous posts) where I interviewed take roughly 75% of the new class from 4th year rotators at their
program.
In short, each strategy has it's benefits. But I have had a nice, relaxing and effective 4th year. Best of
luck to all.
Bonebuster
Registered User
Posts: 9
(5/18/01 8:49:09 pm)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
Three away rotations in addition to one home rotation is in my opinion way too much. When I applied,
the chairman at my medical school told us that whenever he sees applicants with more than a total of
three ortho rotations he views them as suspect. It draws attention to your application indicating that
you do not have confidence in yourself as an applicant. That tells residency directors a VERY strong
message about you. Also, they want applicants who are interesting, not people who just spent their
whole fourth year rotating in ortho. I personally did two aways and one at my home program. I matched
at one of my away institutions, my No. 1 choice. So there is no doubt that away rotations make a
difference, but too many will raise questions.
Mr Sparkle
Registered User
Posts: 3
(5/20/01 12:15:58 am)
Reply
Re:
Bonebuster, did you have a third-year rotation in Ortho or does your school only offer Ortho in the
fourth-year?
slk
Registered User
Posts: 30
(5/20/01 6:03:32 pm)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
And one MORE thing.. I as well rotated at three reaches and matched at one of them.. One of the letters
I got from one of the places, which the attending let me see before I left was real nice, so I sent it every
program. I got a many comments on it, but one interviewer said, "Your home letters are good, but
usually attendings want to pump up students from their own program. This letter from a guy who only
had a month to get to know you, has no reason not to be objective, and said THIS means a lot more."
Along the same lines, I've heard more than once that home chairmen letters carry the least weight,
because chairmen rarely write luke warm letters for their own students.
Puddy
Registered User
Posts: 7
(5/20/01 7:51:09 pm)
Reply
Re: Number of Away Rotations
Dudes - and dudettes, I presume - what medical schools do you all go to that allows a 4th year
curriculum of 4 or even 6 (6?!!!) rotations in orthopaedics? I'm allowed to do 2 months of ortho (or any
surgical specialty for that matter) and if I want to do a third, I need to use one of the scheduled off
months (interviews, boards, etc.) to do an extra month in something non-ortho. This even includes a
month of ortho research if you want to get credit for it. I'm not saying I agree with the system at my
school, and you can perhaps sense my slight envy, but anything more than three months seems
excessive to me also. Then again, every program states how important it is to do a month there if you're
serious about getting a spot there. Herein lies the dilemma, my neurotic friends. For what it's worth, I
did decide to do one "home" and one away month.
OrthoStud
Registered User
Posts: 15
(5/20/01 9:37:58 pm)
Reply
Beat this dead horse...
Yes...my school has a similar policy to limit the number of Ortho rotations. But there are ways around it
here, and some of my classmates have quite an impressive sphincter tone...you can do 1 home ortho, 2
away orthos....but we have 2 vacation months...and can use those as aways if you choose...if you do 2
week away rotations...that adds up. The ones whose sphincter tone is not conducive to having bowel
movements do 2 weeks during Christmas vacation.
Bonebuster
Registered User
Posts: 10
(5/21/01 12:34:52 am)
Reply
Re: Re:
Mr Sparkle,
In my school can do ortho in your elective block if u choose to. Many don't do this since their elective
block ends up being early on in the year or before their surgery rotation. I ended up doing ortho the
very last rotation in my third year, and then doing two aways in my first two block in fourth year. Hope
that helps.
BB
bonepain
Registered User
Posts: 18
(5/22/01 9:26:34 pm)
Reply
I am too lazy
You know, I have been hearing about this away rotation stuff also.
I don't think I am going to do one, mainly because I am too lazy to get all the paperwork together. Man,
what a pain in the ass.
I suppose it is in my best interest to do so, however.
eggghead
Registered User
Posts: 1
(6/12/01 10:37:23 am)
Reply
open doors
I think those of you who are rationalizing not doing aways are not only lazy, but afraid. Yeah sure, aways
are hard, stressful, and a little scary, but if you think you are capable of doing ortho then you better
have the energy and nutsack to get off you ass, go somewhere new, and do something tough.
If you weigh all the risks and benefits, its crazy not to do aways esp if you are a normal candidate
(meaning score below 250 and not junior kiss ass AOA). Aways will get you interviews at those programs
that would normally throw your app in the trash. There seems to be a randomness in terms of who gets
interviews where. So even if you are a really strong candidate, you could get interviews almost
everywhere except the one or two you were really interested in. Doing the away guarantees youlll get
that interview unless you really do something wrong or your personality sucks.
All this BS about 3 rotations being excessive and how it looks to chairmen never came up this yyr at one
interview i went to or heard of. Every person I know (from my school and others I met on interviews)
who matched at a really strong program or got their 1st choice, did aways at that place.
Be brave and good luck.