Decision would be easy for me since I think all Blue Devils suck. But to answer your question, both have enough name recognition that it won't make a difference when applying for residency.

Pick a med school based on where you'd be happiest, not on where you think you will be career-wise in 4 years.

Pick a med school based on where you'd be happiest, not on where you think you will be career-wise in 4 years.

hard to say. i think i would be happy at both places.

anyone have any more insight? would a doctor making a call for me or writing a reference for me be stronger coming from duke over vandy? or is that sort of thing negligible? thanks.

Pick a med school based on where you'd be happiest, not on where you think you will be career-wise in 4 years.

hard to say. i think i would be happy at both places.

anyone have any more insight? would a doctor making a call for me or writing a reference for me be stronger coming from duke over vandy? or is that sort of thing negligible? thanks.

Dude, both are great med schools. I would say Duke is somewhat of a stronger name. However, I would very strongly advise you not to make such a huge desicion based on how far you think a call or letter can take you. Its awesome that you are interested really early but there is a strong chance you might choose to do something else (heck, I was interested in Cardiology my 1st year of med school!). Given that they are two very solid schools, I would say go to THE BEST FIT. I would not say the same if the other was an unheard of medical school.

As far as being a succesful candidate, factors such as: school support, grading system, AOA system, resouces, advisors, athmosphere, USMLE preparation, faculty approachability, location that maximizes your potential and keeps you sain, and all around coolness are much more important than who will write your letter, in getting you into your desired residency.

Make a smart move!

Pick a med school based on where you'd be happiest, not on where you think you will be career-wise in 4 years.

hard to say. i think i would be happy at both places.

anyone have any more insight? would a doctor making a call for me or writing a reference for me be stronger coming from duke over vandy? or is that sort of thing negligible? thanks.

Dude, both are great med schools. I would say Duke is somewhat of a stronger name. However, I would very strongly advise you not to make such a huge desicion based on how far you think a call or letter can take you. Its awesome that you are interested really early but there is a strong chance you might choose to do something else (heck, I was interested in Cardiology my 1st year of med school!). Given that they are two very solid schools, I would say go to THE BEST FIT. I would not say the same if the other was an unheard of medical school.

As far as being a succesful candidate, factors such as]

again, so hard to figure out without experience! the second look at vandy was awesome and i really like their revised yet still somewhat traditional program. the administration is excellent and very supportive there.

at duke, i really like the idea of the third year thats open to research. the admin, again, seems very supportive.

i think at this point ill just have to go with finances.

You need to drink as much beer during your first two years of med school to make up for the lack of it the rest of your medical training career. I whole heartedly agree that you should go where you are happiest. It will make you a better applicant for ortho in the long run

Prospect,

Well, just to be the devil's advocate, I will say one thing different than the rest. The challenge in being at a top medical school is finishing near the top of the class. I don't know the individual grading systems for either program, as I don't remember from my interviews there way back when, but, don't forget that your grades do make up a significant portion of your application. If you are trying be in the top 10% of your class amongst the top 1% in the country who all want to be in the top 10%, that's pretty tough. That's my only word of caution, but it is a big one. I ran into plenty of people interviewing at top programs that came from bottom feeder med schools because they came out looking like all-stars from their programs (less competition = more ability to distinguish one's self). At the same time, there were plenty of guys who finished in the middle of their class at big name programs that weren't getting as many interviews. Wherever you decide, work your tail off and be at the top.

Look at the main things considered for getting into Orthopedics. They are:

1) rotating at the program (that won't differ no matter where you go)
2) grades (could be drastically different depending on your school)
3) AOA (see grades, as this is the main determining factor of AOA)
4) letters of recommendation/"who knows who" (could be different depending on the ortho department, but both should give you great letters and both are well connected)
5) Step scores (this, in my opinion, is very dependent on you, not the school. Why else can a school like mine have some people fail the boards and some get scores in the 260's?)
6) Research (Duke may have an edge here, but you can do research at any school in the country if you want to, as there is no shortage of researchers looking for med student help)

So... really not much difference there. The differences likely lie in how they grade and then just a feel for how much you will like working at one program over another. As another poster mentioned, you'll work harder and do better at a program you enjoy working in.

I lean towards Vandy, as in my opinion it is a bit more balanced between research and clinical as well as has a traditional schedule (when I looked at Duke, they were trying to sell us on the 1 year pre-clinical thing... didn't really appeal to me to be honest, but perhaps it does to you). This is just a personal thing, so I don't think anyone here can help you out much with your decision.

By the way... if you love Ortho, stick to your guns. There is nothing wrong with going hard for the thing you want. It keeps you focused, determined, and helps distinguish you from the pack.

Prospect,

Well, just to be the devil's advocate

forgive me for sounding naiive, but i thought grades were not that important (i assume you mean grading during pre-clinical) as compared to most all other elements of your app?

did you mean specifically grading during rotations? if thats the case, then that makes sense (though naiively i assumed most schools kind of graded rotations similarly..).

Prospect-
07UTGrad is right in saying that grades can differ depending on where you go and how many allstars are in your class, both in basic and clinical sciences. On clinical rotations, many attendings will grade you based on how you perform compared to other people on the rotation. That being said, there won't be as big a difference b/w Duke and Vandy as at other more dissimilar places, though there will probably be more allstars at Duke.
I think the biggest thing for you to decide is whether or not you like the way the programs are set up-I'm familiar with Duke's program and know that it is a totally different experience than most other medical schools since you have a research year during MSIII.
Research in ortho is huge, and Duke has a ton of opportunities to get projects, publications, etc. What you need to decide is whether it's worth you busting your butt to do all the basic science in 1 year and potentially not get as strong a basic science background before starting clinics.
While I don't know much about Vandy's med school, I know that people who have rotated there have really liked it, and kind of considered it a bit of a diamond in the rough. Duke's ortho program is definitely strong. So, the strength of the programs shouldn't be as much a factor.
PM me if you have any qs, especially about Duke's program. Good luck with the decision-you can't go wrong either way!

Prospect,

Well, just to be the devil's advocate

forgive me for sounding naiive, but i thought grades were not that important (i assume you mean grading during pre-clinical) as compared to most all other elements of your app?

did you mean specifically grading during rotations? if thats the case, then that makes sense (though naiively i assumed most schools kind of graded rotations similarly..).

Here's the deal. AOA is based largely on grades and how you rank against the class. Around half of your grades are determined in your pre-clinical years. Let's compare two hypothetical schools:

School A:
Grading scale is Honors, High Pass, Pass, Fail. These grades are typically not determined by a set grade (like a 90%), but rather by a percentage of the class (i.e. Honors = top 10%, High pass = next 20%, so on and so forth).

School B:
Grading scale is A, B, C, F. These grades are determined by a set grade (i.e. A = 90%+, B = 80%+, C=70%+, etc...)

So... if you attend school A, the competition is between you and your classmates. You may get a 92% in a class, but end up with a high pass because 10% of your classmates pulled a 95% or higher. If the school is full of very smart, top of the applicant pool people, you end up lower on the totem pole and possibly out of a chance at AOA despite performing at a very high level. Same school, different mix of classmates. You get a 92% and the top 10% in the class get an 85% or higher. You perform the same level of work, but now you are #1 in your class. You also end up AOA.

School B... if this is the grading scale your school will use, you are competing against yourself. In this case, the quality of your classmates has no bearing on your pre-clinical grades.

Either school... your subjective clinical grades are DEFINITELY based on how you do vs your peers. Most clinical grades are some mix (ours was near 50-50 in all areas) of subjective grades and your objective scores on the shelf exams. If you are with top notch students, you will have to do very well to obtaining honors grades in your rotations.

Are pre-clinical grades important? Well, your overall grade is important, as is your AOA status. Therefore, you cannot overlook pre-clinical grades. The programs are really trying to find out if you are going to pass the Orthopedic Boards and they will use every ounce of information given to them to make those determinations.

So, my end response is this. Going to a program like Duke or Vandy is high risk and high reward. If you come out in the top 5-10% of your class, you have a leg up on Joe Blow from State U that comes out with similar grades. However, Joe Blow's chances of being in the top 5-10% are much better considering his competition, so to speak (assuming the grades are based on honors, high pass, etc... like in example school A).

I hope this helps, as it is something very poorly understood by most medical school applicants in your position.

You need to drink as much beer during your first two years of med school to make up for the lack of it the rest of your medical training career. I whole heartedly agree that you should go where you are happiest. It will make you a better applicant for ortho in the long run

seconded. :thumbsup:

Joe Blow's student loans are much smaller as well.

I recognize that I'm a minority in this opinion, but I do agree with what's generally been said above. I think school reputation matters much more than most people would like/admit.

I would suggest that you check out studentdoctor.net for the match list of various med school. Specifically, Harvard and Yale (I'm not a student there). They have amazing match... and both schools don't even have AOA. Yale is mostly (?) pass and fail, and they don't even take the shelf exams! It's INSANELY unfair... but it seems to be the trend.

Having said that Vanderbilt and Duke both have VERY solid reputation, and the distinction is going to be very small. Personally, I like Duke and their 3rd year off research which gives you huge advantage if u can crank out some papers. Vanderbilt is also great for ortho, and you would not be at a significant disadvantage compared to Duke.

I'll throw in my $.02 - from what I have seen, name recognition definitely matters, mostly it seems for the fact that to get into those schools means you have to have pretty good numbers to begin with, so one tends to think that you will be a good finished product, so to speak, as well. That said, I think both schools have a good name, with Duke taking the edge in name only.

The other thing to consider is this: I have to disagree with what some people have said above, specifically this - while doing research elsewhere, I have seen my fair share of "all-stars" and slackers at both top 10 schools and joe schmoe med u; further, ANYWHERE you go, the people that get junior AOA are SUPER smart (or just have SUPER awesome memory skills). It will not be easy, and I doubt even much easier, wherever you are. Remember, the people that get AOA are only a small percentage (at my school, it was only the top .

If the schools were vastly different in reputation, I would say take the more well-recognized, but in this case, it's a wash. From what you implied in your original post, I think that we both know you feel better about Vandy. I have to advise you to go with your gut on this one.

heh - I didn't mean to do this: but rather just the number EIGHT

To the OP - you said you think you'll be happier at Vandy...so it sounds like you're leaning that way, but maybe somewhere in your mind there is the "what if".

In my experiences, I've noticed that I often have to struggle with what I feel in the gut versus my ego. I don't say that to flame, just as potential insight, I think many of us faced this scenario in creating our rank lists for the match. Try to take your ego out of the equation and see what happens, perhaps that might offer another useful perspective.

I suppose financial aid could also play a role if it was a very, very large difference, but it would have to be pretty big in my opinion. I used that reason to help me choose a med school (not the tipping point, but a small factor) and my tuition pretty much doubled since I started med school, which you usually can't predict with any certainty. Good luck.

I know that Vandy and Duke both have excellent ortho programs. My question is this ---
do you think there is any difference or advantage that duke may offer over vandy in helping students match? i know that things like AOA, usmle scores, and away rotations matter the most, ---- but do you think that a phone call or connections at Duke may be better in helping students match well than Vandy?

To rehash some of the comments made on this topic, I think that Duke's curriculum is very attractive. A no nonsense first year, and then the Duke 3rd year - I think this offers experiences that you cannot get (or at least as easily) at other schools, esp. protected research time. In my opinion, this is much more important in terms of a match-edge than phone calls or potential letters. Even if you decide later on that ortho is not your thing, you can take advantage of many of Duke's other strong clinical areas with research. Spend a year in the clinic, narrow down your field choice, then spend a year getting to know top people in top specialties, cranking out pubs (if you're fast). Look at the number of successful applicants in ortho with research experience - it is obviously an important, while not mandatory, aspect of your application. You can do a lot more and have more meaningful work in a year than you can in a couple of summers and during the semesters while you are juggling trying to memorize pharm or out on the wards. While I don't think you can go wrong either way, I think that Duke offers an advantage not seen elsewhere unless you go MD/PhD. Plus, its three years of tuition (plus a year of salary if you do research) over four years of tuition. BTW, I don't go to Duke, but I was very impressed with them.

Good luck

According to collegeprowler.com, the girls at Vandy got an A+, the girls at Duke got a B. I know where I would go.

I think some people have touched on this, but with many factors being equal (or close to it), you really have to look at where you would be happy as far as friends, family, climate, city life, etc... If there is one thing I have learned in med school (besides the kreb's cycle for the millionth time) it is that happy students make good students. Your personal life has more influence that you would think on how much time/effort/productivity you get in terms of your academics. Go where you will be the happiest person and school falls in place. Just my 2 cents.