It's hard to say. I guess you'll just have to go with whether or not it's a good 'fit'. That's really all you have to go by.

Hopefully this will help, even though I'm a resident.

The old news is that 4 people left over the last 4 years. We have 38 current surgical Attendings that teach residents. We are adding at least 3 new guys this summer. False to say "basically all of the faculty" left.

Its old news and nothing we're hiding. Three years ago, three shoulder attendings left for Rothman. (Hearsay is that they were drawn to more liberal policies on intellectual property.) Since then, three new sports attendings (two young, one senior) joined, all with extensive shoulder experience. There are now 6 attendings as part of the shoulder crew, not counting CHOP.

Last year one hand guy left. Since then Dr Levin joined (three days of clinical work/wk, plus call), as well as a skilled hand guy from the Philadelphia Hand Center who is now part time with us.

On balance not that much is different. Upper extremity is well represented and growing.

Changes at the helm are because Dr. Lackman (former Chair and program director) is now heading up the Hospitals' Sarcoma Center. He's still head of Ortho Onc and a huge voice in the leadership. The new program director Dr. Israelite has always been a resident advocate and a leader on the resident committee. The Chairman changes started a year ago. Talk to Duke if you want non-Penn insight on Dr. Levin. I couldn't be happier with his leadership; he is a high-energy chairman who has already made positive changes.

You're asking good questions. Hopefully this helps. In my opinion, Penn continues to offer excellent surgical training, a resident centered program, breadth of orthopaedics, and academic integrity at a level that cannot be significantly changed by the addition or subtraction of 4 attendings over 4 years.

I'm not sure what changes in the "middle of interview season" localmotion is talking about. Levin started in late spring, early summer.

I'm referring to the program director change. This happened within the last couple of months. I think in Nov/Dec.

It definitely sounds like the new chair will churn the pot a little. Penn had been stable for so many years, and it'd be a shame for the department to change its character completely.. even if the best intentions are in mind.

Churn the pot he certainly will, but more so on a hospital admin level to get the department more funds, more ORs, more exposure, etc.

It seems like the new chairman is intense

"intense" is a nice way to put it. I rotated there this past summer and can honestly tell you the new chairman is a big negative. Levin seems to have a chip on his shoulder and runs the department through intimidation. He's changed/changing the whole culture of the program, from relaxed and close-knit camaraderie to uptight elitism. Several residents flat-out told me they were afraid of him. He's threatened to fire residents and medical students for not being clean-shaven (even if your post-call) or not showing up to work in a shirt & tie (regardless of your duties for that day). Ridiculousness. As for why the late change in the program director, I wouldn't be surprised if Lackman stepped down due to conflicts with Levin. Those two guys are like night and day, complete opposites in philosophy and personality, which doesn't bode well for the future of faculty relationships.

Penn will always be Penn though, so your going to get great training and great connections. Israelite seems like a real resident-friendly director too.

I'm assuming the above post was from a rotator that did not get an interview. Regardless, I am going to go ahead and disagree with the disgruntled opinion.

Having a strong leader with a proven background is not a "big negative." Someone with even half of his credentials certainly has no "chip on his shoulder." That doesn't even make sense.

And running the "department through intimidation?" He runs the department by example. He's an ex-military guy. He expects a lot from himself; he expects a lot from those around him. And at the end of the day, he goes to bat for the residents. Truly a work hard, play hard mentality.

Not entirely so sure why being clean shaven, showered, and dressed appropriately is looked down upon. I didn't realize there are part of the country where that is considered "ridiculousness."

Even if it were true, why would a resident tell a med student that he's scared of being fired? That sounds ridiculousness.

Nice theory about Lackman stepping down, considering he was one of the interviewers and sat on resident selection committee. Hey, but what do I know.

I guess I don't entirely diagree with the above post because "Penn will always be Penn," so you're gonna get your great training.

I guess the point is, Penn is not the place you want to go if you want to get hugs from your chairman after every case. Not gonna happen.

on the contrary, I was offered an interview and did so last week. My main point was that walking on egg-shells during your training and fearing for your career because of a 5-oclock shadow is indeed ridiculous. But if you don't believe me, you really should try talking to some of your students and junior residents, cause the majority of them are absolutely afraid of Levin and are quite open about it.

Regardless, it is still a great program and will be relatively high on my list, just not as high as it would have been if not for Levin. For me, the chairman and his relationship with his residents is an important factor for ranking. I'd like to have a great relationship with my boss, someone I can easily approach with questions or problems (not hugs after every case). Levin does not seem to be that kind of chair. Like you said, he has a military background and seems to treat his younger residents like disposable foot-soldiers.

Heard one of the PGY2s bailed on the program this year. Can anyone comment on what the story was there?

Obviously you don't have a military background. I have yet to meet an officer that felt his NCOs or "foot soldiers" were disposable.

Not sure which PGY-2 left. Not sure if you are talking about our program. We have 8 residents a year, plus 2 research residents. Last count we still had 42 residents in the program.

I've lurked on this site for a very long time, usually not paying too much attention to it due to rumors like this that usually get started by people who are not part of the programs they post about. Anyway, I finally felt the need to make an account to clarify some of the things being said about Penn. I am one of the Penn junior residents.

1) To clarify about the PGY2 who "bailed" - as drillbit said, this is not true. Perhaps you refer to an intern last year (current PGY2 class) who switched to a different program on the West Coast in between PGY 1 and 2. The full story is that she traded spots with an intern in the west coast program, because each of them had boyfriends living on the opposite coast. The intern who left Penn had a boyfriend in LA, and the one who came to Penn has a boyfriend who is a resident in a different department at Penn. There is nothing more to it than that.

2) It is false to say that any of the residents (senior or junior) are "afraid" of Dr. Levin. If you rotated here and got that impression, I suspect that you were here in early summer (July/August) when we were just barely getting to know him ourselves. At that point, we didn't really know what to expect from him, as you say yourself, his leadership style is certainly quite different from that of Dr. Lackman (former chairman). He certainly is a man who commands respect, but once you earn it and he gets to know you, he will do anything (literally) for you. I think this is the military mentality drillbit was referring to, not that he's some sort of boot camp instructor who yells a lot and rules by intimidation.

3) Yes we are supposed to wear a shirt and tie everyday, and be clean shaven. This is the practice at several other programs, perhaps most notably NYU with Dr. Zuckerman, and all the NYU residents will tell you that he is the best chairman they could ever hope for. If it comes down to this and you are going to base your rank list on the fact that you'll have to wear a tie, then I say congratulations because you obviously must have many places you really like if something like that would actually make a difference.

That said, at this point I'm pretty sure that every single resident has worn scrubs in and/or out of the hospital at least once, and none of us have been fired. I can say 100% that we've all been unshaven at one point or another (haha, well the guys anyway), and likewise, no one has been fired. It is absurd to even think that someone could get fired for something as trivial as that. The ACGME and RRC and all those other committees would have an absolute field day if anything like that ever happened.

4) Regarding the program director change - As you know Dr. Lackman used to both chairman and PD. He announced he would step down about a year ago, and Dr. Levin was brought in in July. Dr. Lackman continued on as PD, but once Dr. Levin settled in more, Dr. Lackman wanted to focus his efforts on a) operating, and b) running the new sarcoma center. At this point Dr. Israelite (a.k.a. Izzy) got on board as the new PD. Dr. Israelite really is a great guy, and I think the residents are universally happy that he is the PD. He has brought a new energy to the position, and his fresh set of eyes have already resulted in improvements to the program. He is also extremely approachable, and I would never hesitate to ask him about anything regarding the program. At the same time, Dr. Lackman is still on the senior faculty as chief of ortho oncology, and we continue to operate with him on both of our tumor rotations (as a PGY4 and PGY2).


This was a really long post, but I felt the need to clear the air here. I really love Penn and I am glad I am here, especially with the leadership of Drs. Levin and Israelite. Feel free to ignore this post if you think I'm just blowing off hot air, but I feel that it would be your loss. If you have other questions/concerns, reply in the thread and I will try to respond if I have time.

1) To clarify about the PGY2 who "bailed" - as drillbit said, this is not true. Perhaps you refer to an intern last year (current PGY2 class) who switched to a different program on the West Coast in between PGY 1 and 2. The full story is that she traded spots with an intern in the west coast program, because each of them had boyfriends living on the opposite coast. The intern who left Penn had a boyfriend in LA, and the one who came to Penn has a boyfriend who is a resident in a different department at Penn. There is nothing more to it than that.

hmm, well the resident "in LA" actually tells a slightly different story. Met her on interview day. The boyfriend was certainly her primary motive for switching, but she didn't exactly have great things to say about her Penn experience or the new chairman. Of course, for recruiting purposes, it's also her job now to talk up her new program versus her old.

hmm, well the resident "in LA" actually tells a slightly different story. Met her on interview day. The boyfriend was certainly her primary motive for switching, but she didn't exactly have great things to say about her Penn experience or the new chairman. Of course, for recruiting purposes, it's also her job now to talk up her new program versus her old.

If she left during or even just after her intern year she would not have been around to actually get to know the new chairman since he started over the summer. So I'm not sure I would trust what she has to say about the new chairman since her information would be hearsay as much as what you get from any resident not currently at Penn.

Also, she may not have liked her Penn experience, but that is also based only on internship not residency. So again, I'm not sure how much you can really trust her opinion on that beyond the fact that internship probably sucks everywhere and she was in not love with her internship at Penn.

As you can see, everyone has their own conclusions and opinions, based on and biased by their own personal interactions or experiences. Your best bet is to just read as much as you can about a program, talk to as many people as you can (students, residents, and attendings), review your interview notes (hope you kept good ones), and ultimately go with your gut. Good luck!

Ok, as someone from the outside who has worked with many medical students and residents who have gone to or rotated at Penn, I feel I can shed some light on this subject. First of all, when you see as much turnover at a program as there has been at Penn, that should raise a red flag. It's no coincidence that Gerry Williams, Matt Ramsey, Charlie Getz, Pedro Beredjiklian and others have all left Penn in the past few years and went to Jeff, and Dr. Lackman stepped down as Chairman. They now have a hand plastics attending as their chairman?!?!? Penn often brags about, well being Penn. A recent applicant told me that he asked the chairman (Dr. Levin) what separates Penn from other programs and his answer was that you graduate with a Penn degree. Well guess what, that will carry you for a couple of months and then people will find out that you can't operate and that will be that. You graduate from Penn and you HAVE TO do a fellowship. In fact, one of my best friends is a resident at another program that has a recent Penn graduate as an attending and he said he is downright lost and pathetic in the OR. Oh yeah, he also did one of the "top" fellowships in the country. You have to take Penn for what it is - a great academic program. You will no doubt know your stuff once you graduate from there, but don't expect to be very skilled or comfortable in the OR. They have 8 residents a year and fellows in almost all subspecialties. If you like doing 3+ hour tibial nails, that's the place for you - in case you were wondering, that's an hour and a half case in most other insitutions. Also, don't think because you go to Penn you will get any fellowship you want. They had a resident who didn't match in sports a couple of years ago. Wearing a shirt and tie everywhere is not a big deal, but it tells you what a program thinks about itself. They are more worried about what you are wearing than they are about you actually doing a case. Good luck!!!

Thought I'd add the perspective of someone who rotated there last year as a visiting medical student:

I've never posted on this forum before, but this thread has been so unfair to Penn that I couldn't stay quiet. Here is my opinion--Penn was amazing. The residents were a ton of fun to hang out with, the attendings genuinely demonstrated an interest in getting to know me and support me, and there are so many operative cases within the 5 hospital system (HUP, Presby, Pennsy, CHOP, VA) that it's laughable to read that Penn residents don't learn how to operate. The PGY-4s I worked with essentially did cases by themselves, and the chiefs made operating look easy. Note that I didn't 'hear this from med students', I saw it with my own eyes.

As for Dr. Levin, he trained in ortho, plastics, and hand, so he's not a 'hand/plastics attending'. That's not giving the man the credit that he is due. He might not be the kind of chairman who bakes cookies for the new interns every year, but he's a proven leader. And from what I've seen, he is 100% committed to making the residency program the best in the country. To say that you wouldn't want to go to Penn because of him is like saying that you don't want to play basketball for Duke because Mike Krzyzewski isn't the kind of coach who cracks jokes with his team 24/7.

Some of you want to train at an academic powerhouse. Others want to go to a place where you get lots of hands on experience. Penn does both extremely well. But it also sounds to me like most of the you would like to go to a program where the chairman is willing to take the residents out for a beer just to chat. For the record, Dr. Levin did just that for the med students when I was there. How many of you can say that the chairman where you did an away did that for you?

Wow...this thread just got nasty. Someone must really hate Penn for some reason... Also, as mentioned above some of your facts are flat out incorrect

I gotta back up porterhouse here. Penn has its problems. All programs do. There is no perfect program out there. The residents I met at Penn were awesome and they definitely knew how to operate. I also met several former Penn residents who were either fellows or junior attendings elsewhere who couldn't say enough good things about Penn. There was certainly no issues with them not knowing how to operate.

In regards to rumors of Penn grads not operating well...First, assuming that this person actually exists...it sounds like this person probably struggled through residency and likely just didn't have what it takes to be a good surgeon. I have no doubt that people like him have gone to every program you can imaging. There are some people who despite wanting to be orthopedic surgeons, and being very smart, do not have the technical skills to operate well. I challenge every applicant to really think about their own surgical skills. Do you really know, with 100% certainty,that you have what it takes? Any one of us could end up like this person. I think it is very unlikely if you work hard and identify your weakness, but we all know that some people are just better in the OR than others. This is not a reflection on Penn...only on one person whose talents as a doctor lay somewhere outside of the OR.

Penn is an awesome program. Levin may be a bit scary at first, but I truly believes he would bend over backwards to help any of his residents. He did ortho residency and then a plastics fellowship. When I interviewed at Duke they couldn't say enough good things about him and were very sorry to have lost him.

Bottom line...its been said before...ignore all subjective posts about a program (including this one) even those from residents. We are all faceless people posting our own interpretations and biases. The only thing I can promise you is that every single one of us is wrong about what we think about a program in some way. Everyone wants something different for different reasons and once we get in we will be both pleasantly surprised and disappointed with the residency we matched at.

Find a place you like and do some due diligence and then go with your gut feeling. It's a crappy system for choosing but its better than anything else we've got.

This thread seems like an attempt to manipulate other people's rank lists. A resident once told me that almost everything on orthogate was wrong or a lie.

Well, as a faculty "consultant" to this website I figured I should weigh in on this topic. While people have the right to say anything they want, I first got involved many years ago due to the level of false information and misinformation occasionally propagated on this website.

To those of who don't have faculty mentors or others whom you rely upon for orthopaedic residency information be very careful about posts that are so defamatory.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses and god knows there's no perfect program but U Penn has an extremely rich tradition of training outstanding orthopaedic surgeons. We happen to be blessed with one of their alum right now who is one of the most outstanding fellows I've had the privilege of working with in my 12 years at Columbia.

Penn has had their share of academic turnover (due to many personal, political and professional issues which all of you will likely experience in your careers since recent statistics state 70% of you will change jobs within the 1st 5 years of your practice!) and for that reason you should appropriately investigate. But remember hiring a new Chairman is like bringing in a new Head Football Coach in many ways. There's going to be turnover - they're going to bring with them new faculty and some of the present faculty may wish to go elsewhere or may not be in the new Chairman's vision for the future.

As always, good luck to each of you and hopefully you will all have a successful match in March --

wnl

In defense of Penn there was no such intern that "bailed" because the program was falling to pieces. I am that intern and the previous post is true. It was an even swap between 2 interns with similar situations (significant others in opposite cities). It was not a smack in the face to Penn, in fact it stands as a testament to how much the program (Dr. Lackman) cares about the residents as people...........he could have easily said no you cant switch we wont even consider it, but instead he said I care about you as a person and want you to be happy and if this will make you happy then I will try to make it happen. Now that is understanding.
Yes Penn was/is going through changes but ALL programs has its ups and downs. I did not bail because of those changes...............I wanted a personal life and where i swapped to was my 1st pick.......who wouldnt do the same thing?
I cant say whats going on now or speak on new faculty but i can say that there is an awesome group of residents there.........specially c/o 2013!