Away rotations

I arranged mine in mid-April and got everything when I wanted. Also, as I am now on my 3rd away rotation, don't do more than 2 aways - it is excessive.

I disagree with TexasOrtho. At the most competitive schools you need to start looking into setting up your aways as early as February, especially if you are looking at the months of June/July. I did three aways and although I was beaten up by the end I would encourage doing three. No matter how good your application is, your best shot of getting in somewhere is at an institution where you rotated (unless you are a tool in which case do not rotate anywhere).

Howzit

I think TXortho is right on the money... it's difficult not to show wear after one home and two aways. If you don't have a home program, then I agree with three. But, doing home plus three aways may be a little much and is probably overkill for most applicants.

As usual I agree with Trigen, I just don't think you can be on top of your game for a 4th month of Ortho, ESPECIALLY if you're on trauma for one or more of those months. I spent 4 weeks of trauma and 2 weeks of onc on an away that was basically 6am-8pm everynight not counting call, and if I'd have had to be cheery and loveable for another month with those hours it just wouldnt' have happened. Besides, there's a pretty good group of people who think that:
1.) if you start doing 3 or more months (especially if on top of a home rotation) you kind of look like you're weak. I mean, at some point you have to be able to get an interview on your apps merits, you can't rotate everywhere. I don't know that some programs might frown on 8 months of ortho in the 4th year.
2.) Alot of places like you to be well rounded, and while we'd all rather do only ortho all 4th year, some medicine, some peds, some rads/rheum/whatever actually makes you a better orthopod too. Nevermind you actually have to know other non-ortho stuff to pass Step II/III and to function as an intern
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Just my thoughts, after doing one away and one home, I don't think I would have done anymore (even though I originally planned another away)

To clarify,

I meant to write 3 months total of ortho. One at your home school and 2 aways. I agree that 4 months total is too much, but still think 2 aways is important.

Howzit

I'd agree with that,
I don't think you HAVE to do 2 aways, but if you have 2 places you really want to see, and you really want to see you, I don't think there's any reason not to. I would be careful what services your on though, 3 months of trauma could be super painful, and in some places you won't even get a chance to look that great (although my home trauma month was really good, I couldn't have done anymore trauma, and I don't know that trauma on an away is the best place to shine).
That said, it's a free country, and I'd say in the end do whatever you're comfortable with. I havn't matched anywhere, so my ramblings are just that.

Please explain how not doing an away make you a tool?

I don't think not doing an away makes you a tool. There may be people on here who do, but I don't think any of them have said that out loud.
I think if you're apps solid, you have plenty of home letters, and you're pretty sure you know what you need to know about other places then I don't think you have to do an away.
The only people who did "the right thing" are the ones that matched and are happy.

I think what Howzit (and please correct me if I'm wrong) meant about being a tool is that if you ARE a tool and look better on paper than you come off in person, then an away rotation could be bad exposure and actually keep you from getting an interview that your paper credentials could have earned for you.

" No matter how good your application is, your best shot of getting in somewhere is at an institution where you rotated (unless you are a tool in which case do not rotate anywhere).

Howzit"

There are lots of reasons for not doing an away. Mine were because of family. I don't consider myself a tool for wanting to be at home with my kids at night.

Hey Howzit... miss being in Philly?

howzit-
obviously, not an attack at people who don't rotate. read more carefully. what was meant by being a tool is that if you are one, then you'll eventually be exposed as one, especially during a month on an away rotation. and if a person is a tool, doing an away rotation only hurts their chances which may have otherwise been better based on their on-paper credentials.

sorry, howzit...that was meant to be addressed to handjob

handjob,

don't freak out over a mis-placed (or rather absent) comma. it was meant to read like this:

unless you are a tool, (pause) in which case do not rotate anywhere (because you are just gonna hurt yourself)

Part my fault, I should have read the post that came before the post I replied to, then I would have been able to explain it to Handjob.
Bottom line, do 5 aways if you want, and if you don't want to do any, don't
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Soudes-

Nobody is "freaking out". I simply misunderstood the post.

HJ

i would have to agree with howzit and thom1432......on one of my rotations, i had an attending tell me that doing these rotations actually hurts a good deal of applicants because the attending, residents, chair, etc. get to know the student all to well and find out that they are tools and would not fit in their program.....right from the mouth of the PD at one of my rotations.......

GJP,

While I don't doubt that this may be true in some cases, the evidence points otherwise. In JBJS AM November 2002 pp. 2090-93 is an article that every ortho applicant should probably live by to some extent. Of 26 selection criteria ranked by roughly 109 program directors, 'rotation at the director's institution' was number one ahead of Step I, AOA, etc. Personally, I think it's lame that many of us feel compelled to do as many of these as we can hack because 4th year is supposed to be a year to explore the things you won't do for the rest of your life. After doing 2 AIs plus a home AI this year, I have now seen the wisdom of my home program director's advice that AIs are more likely to hurt a good candidate on paper, than help one. I thought he was full of s@#$, but live and learn. Anyway, just my $.02

i read the article last year as i was applying for aways.......the article points out two points you neglected to mention in your effort to tell us that you read JBJS...1)only a little over 50% match at an institution they rotated at 2)it also concludes there is no rhyme or reason to what PD's are looking for when inviting candidates for interviews since everyone places different value on different criteria.....and since most applicants let there ego mania side show (according to the PD at my home institution) it only ends up hurting them..........

GJP,

Dude, easy on the JBJS insinuation. It wasn't my intent whatsoever to come across as well versed in ortho literature or as an ortho nerd. Say what you want, but that article is the best attempt yet that I am aware of to begin to put a finger on what PDs are looking for in applicants. Consider also that there are many applicants who rotate at programs only to find out that they don't like the program and therefore don't rank it highly if at all. This has to have some effect on the published value of 50% be it large or small. I personally rotated at a program this fall that I thought going into it may well be my number one choice. However, after rotating there, for various reasons, that will no longer be the case. Yes it's an imperfect study as many are and as you alluded to, but I honestly would welcome anything better. Peace.