St Louis

I'm an MS-III at SLU, and we are going to 6 years for sure. The program is going to be very solid, as Dr. Moed has brought several new attendings with him, and we are hiring more new faculty as well. I could probably give you more details (message me if you want), but you might be better off talking to one of our residents, there is at least one of them who occasionally is on this board. From the sounds of things it's going to be a very strong program (not that it's weak now), and the schedule is pretty sweet, at least the plan I've heard . I guess I'll know more after I do my Ortho rotation here in July.
Can't help much with Wash U, trying to find out more about them as well as ourselves, as I would also strongly consider staying in St. Louis, but maybe somebody else on here, or the old posts have some infromation.

i am from slu (before all the turnover). As far as i know they are still looking for a ton of people (i think their only hand attending is a plastics person who is on both departments). I have never worked with Moed or any of his "trauma posse" that he brought down, but regardless of who the attendings are SLU will most likely always be pretty trauma heavy. As far as the six year thing goes, that is up to your own tastes. I would personally NOT like having to do a year of research, although i do understand part of their motivation (being able to use the research people to cover call will help them with the 80 hour rule) I do think it will deter good applicants, like what has happened at other programs that went to 6 years recently.
As far as wash u is concerned, it certainly is a different type of program. Some people like to classify programs as nerdy or for jocks. Wash U is much more nerdy. Not that that is bad, but it definatly has a more academic feel to it. Lots of big names in many fields (hand, shoulder, spine) and a fellowship in almost every area. From what i hear the night float system is helping with the workhours, but dont be fooled too much. They do work long hours on non-call days.
I really like st louis and will most likely go back there to practice. I would encourage you to do a rotation at one or both of the places. Thats really the only way to make your own decision versus going on what others say
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Thanks for all the good info. I have applied for Ortho rotations at both places. I am not against the 6 year thing at all. I just really want to end up in St Louis. Do you guys know the competitiveness of those programs? I'm sure Wash U is ridiculously hard to get into, but whats the scoop on SLU? I have average board scores, no AOA, no honors, but I have research at Wash U and I think most attendings/residents at my school like me..... I am willing to work my ass off for both programs. So if I do that on my electives and that shines through - do you guys think I have a fighting chance??? Thanks

well wash U is much more numbers oriented (of course The new chair at slu may change that). I was not AOA, did not have much for research, had pretty good board scores, and had really good letters (from a couple of people in st louis) I honestly did not expect to get interviewed at places like mayo and wash u, but i got interviews at both of those and got shot down at place like nebraska and arkansas. That is just the nature of the game. Something in my app peaked the interest of the people at those two places, and i got an interview. This is the reason that although you really want to end up in st louis, you'd be a fool not to apply broadly. Too many weird things happen with the whole process (like this years fiasco at Wisconson) to take chances. SO are you from st louis or something?

Bonedoc may I ask where you ended up? And can you (if you feel comfortable) give a few more specifics on your credentials.... reason I ask is... you mentioned you got some pretty great interviews and it would help us 3rd years decide where we might have buisness applying to!
THanks
PO

I'm an intern at SLU in the middle of my ortho rotation. I'll be happy to give my honest estimation of the program as I now know it. I stress the "now" because we are in the middle of a rather large transition.

I think the "reputation" of SLU in the past is rather pointless to discuss anymore because one would hardly recognize the program in six months. We are a small program, just three residents per year. We have just gone to six years (which does not affect me at all except to make my call schedule easier). The reason Dr. Moed has added a year is two fold. First, the academy requires that residents do research. It is his belief that if we are going to pretend to do research, we should make it meaningful and actually do some research instead of the usual "fluff" projects residents do just to satisfy the requirement. Second, we need manpower. This is a busy place and we simply couldn't get to 80 hours without taking less call. I am sure the 6th year is a turnoff to many, but it will make for a better lifestyle for your time and I believe in the long run will make one a better orthopedist.

Within nine months our faculty will consist of:
Dr. Moed (pelvic trauma expert and well known previous chair at Detroit Receiving affiliated with Wayne State), Dr. Watson - trauma attending with special interest in Ilizarov techniques (he's been here three weeks and we've put on four of those things already), Dr. Kuldjanov - another ilizarov and trauma attending with a great deal of international experience and someone who I can personally vouch is a great intraoperative teacher, Dr. Cargis (spelling?) is a traumatologist with expertise in foot and ankle I'm told (never met him, he starts next week), a Dr. Kiefer (again, spelling? a full time sports attending starting in July), Dr. Place is our current spine attending that is fantastic to work with by all accounts, Dr. Otto who does trauma and total joints, Dr. Burdge the outgoing chair remains on staff and will now focus on total joints as well as other general orthopedics I'm told, another spine attending whose name I don't remember is starting in September. Drs. Thompson and Engel run the pediatric division, which is an excellent experience with plenty of operative autonomy. Dr. Moed is recruiting a hand surgeon and people seem hopeful that one is on the way. Our only hand surgeon is a plastics attending. We currently have part time faculty in tumor, sports, foot but I don't know what our relationship with them will be once the full time guys are up and running. The rotation at St. Mary's (private hospital) is being eliminated for various reasons, mostly because the residents wanted to get rid of it.

If the rest of those coming to join our faculty are anywhere near as great as Moed and Watson are, then this place will have a fantastic faculty. These guys are unbelievably good to work with. They back us up all the way when dealing with other departments (radiology, trauma, etc), and they get us what we need if the hospital isn't providing it. I read some post on this board about Moed not letting residents do much in his pelvis cases, and I can promise you that is complete bullshit. The residents do plenty with no complaints so far.

They are hiring two PA's to help us with the @$%& work in the hospital, which is going to be great. We are getting cast techs for both inpatient and outpatient settings.

The structure of the residency will be:
PGY1: standard internship with 3 months of ortho
Research year: 3.5 days research, 1.5 days clinical (clinic and OR time), q7 in house trauma call
PGY2: 8 months of trauma, 4 months of pediatrics; q5-6 in house call
PGY3,4: rotate on spine, joints, sports, hand twice each. Foot and ankle cases will be done by the trauma residents. q5-6 home call backing up the pgy-2's
PGY 5: 4 months trauma chief, 4 months pedi chief, 4 months joints/general with Dr. Burdge/Otto

I'm told they plan to have us sent to one meeting or course per year (AO fracture, AAOS meeting, Ilizarov course, Miller review course, etc).

You can't beat the lifestyle and I think the training is going to be outstanding. The extra year kinda sucks, but it makes the experience so much better. It is easy for me to say that because I will get all the benefits of a six year program without actually having to do six years.

The hospital is so-so, with some features of the private for profit hospital and some of the county hospitals. St. Louis has no city/county hospital so we pretty much share all the crap with Wash U. SLU gets TONS of trauma because we are the only hospital in St. Louis that is licensed by the state of Illinois to get transfers from E. St. Louis which is a pretty trauma rich environment. That gives us the rep of being Trauma U, but in reality you only deal with that while on the trauma service. The other three years is all elective orthopedics and pediatrics (mix of trauma and developmental).

If you like St. Louis I think SLU is an excellent choice and I highly recommend a rotation. Honestly I was disappointed on match day because I knew SLU was having problems with faculty retention, but now that we are on the way up I see very good things for my training.

I have no idea what kind of numbers you have to have, or what role the residents will get in choosing our class because Moed has not been the chair for long. If I learn more, I'll post here.

I know very little about the program at wash U. Only the stuff you read on this board. My only encounters with their residents was while I was on Gen surg at VA. They seemed competent, if not overly friendly. If you are set on St. Louis then I would rotate at both. Both are good programs from what I know.

Best of luck. If you post your email I'd be happy to answer questions.

....and that's why I wanted one of our residents to answer fxfxr's question
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(How's life finally on Ortho going all wise and powerful Podtobe ? I can promise you it's better than f-ing OB/GYN, but that's a subject for a beer sometime....I'm on Psych starting May 12 so should be free )

As a former trauma fellow who worked extensively with Dr. Moed, Watson, Karges, Cramer, Kuldjanov....I still keep in close contact with all of them and am very familiar with the situation at the "new SLU"
As you are finding out (previous post) Moed and crew are very much resident advocates....you will work hard....but they will do all they can to make it a worthwhile experience...and provide resources to help you...AND let you do a lot of surgery....yes even parts of complex pelvis, acetabuli , and Lizards.
As I understand it,, the curent faculty remaining is great!!!!!and In addition to the aforementioned new faculty ...new chief of Sports Medicine starting in June who will be caring for the University teams and local high schools....with plans to expand to more surgeons as volume evolves....another spine attending starting Aug / Sept. recruited from U of Missouri, Dr. Karges starts soon...trauma/foot and ankle, Dr. Moed is currently interviewing for a chief of the hand service and expects to have a stellar person very soon. Dr. Cramers arrival has been delayed but they are expecting her hopefullly in the fall (pediatric traumatologist with reconstruction) They are transitioning their elective surgery to a suburban hopsital affiliated with the University with clinic facilities..which will be nice in that it will allow more truama/spine O.R.'s
and facilitate the elective surgeons a nice suburban location. This is a NICE move as it will increase the visibililty of the dept. and give the residents a wide variety of practice settings and patient contacts....Dr. Otto wil be spearheading the joint service and and as volume allows Dr. Moed hopes to expand the joint service within a year. The "extra" year is currently a new thing...however just wait...within 2-3 years ALL programs will be doing this...it will actually make your lives BETTER with meanful research and lighter call overall....so although it sounds like a drag....Moed is just ahead of the curve..(as usual)...I know Dr. Moed has a lot of committments for research funding and is keying up with other SLU depts to do some very meaningful collaborative research...so I think it will be an exciting transition for all involved at SLU and think that it would be worthwhil for all students interested in St. Louis to rotate at BOTH institutions..(SLU / Wash U ) .Both have lots to offer...just remember no matter what the program.....their is NO perfect program...you just have to figure out what appeals to you,,,and the type of people that you will be working with...i.e...."Do I see myself fitting in here for the next 6 years???" good luck to all

what community hospital are you refering to? Des Peres? St Johns? The earlier post mentioned that they were getting rid of the St Marys rotation. Just curious.

Des Peres is where the joint service is going. I don't think it's set yet, but I believe the sports and other elective stuff that is same-day-surgery stuff is going down the street to the Anheuser Busch Institute (OR's for ophthalmology and other same day stuff). SLU proper is intended to mainly serve for trauma and spine if I understand the plans correctly.

if things are going out to des peres, didnt dr howard (who used to be a hand attending at slu) go out there to head up the DO residency? I know you guys are in need of hand attendings, since when i was there and needed a hand surgeon, Woodberry was the only one there after dr rotman left to go into private practice

Anybody know which new attendings Ghelberman is bringing to wash u this year?

bonedoc,
I don't know much about the des peres thing except that they want to move elective cases out there. At one point somebody said something about one or two hand attendings that left slu coming back into the group but the only thing I've heard from Dr. Moed is that they are actively recruiting and one of the guys they are interested in is coming to give us a lecture next week. The first time I saw Dr. Watson was when he came to lecture to us, so if that is any indication... maybe we're close to landing ourselves a hand dude.

Dr. Woodberry is the only hand attending at slu right now, but if the positive changes we have already seen continue we'll have more in a short time.

As a resident who worked with the team, i can tell you that the experience is very worthwhile. Drs Watson and Karges are tremendous surgeons and their new partner Jackman is also very talented. Moed runs a tight ship, and as long as you have your stuff in order he treats you very well. Moed used to be a firebreathing dragon, but he has mellowed significantly over the last few years. But he still can raise hell when needed. Moed will be an excellent chairman. He has a vision of where he wants the ship to sail, and does not back down from controversy. The current line up of the trauma team is a real winner. There is a lot to learn from these guys.