Wayne State

It sucks.

Crappy lifestyle, crappy OR experience, crappy city, crappy patient population, and strange residents

Don't think you get a great trauma experience either. Image scrubbing in on an ORIF ankle with the attending, fellow, senior resident, junior resident, and med student. The third year is still figuring out how to close.

They make you take a written test during interview season too. Just to scare you off even more.

Tillaux

anyone have any more objective info...hehe? A written test sounds kinda crappy for an interview!

Here's the deal from a former student at Wayne... Don't know about the previous post...did he/she spend time there, hear that via word of mouth (ie talkin' out his a$$) or what?
As with ANY program you can't define it like that. The information which that closely resembles is Detroit Receiving, which does see a lot of truama, does have a trauma fellow and all the aforementioned people scrub in on the 2-3 Orthorooms running each day.
Note: you only spend a couple months there each year.
HOWEVER, that situation does not exist at Sinai-Grace, the VA, Providence, and each subspecialty rotation (hand,foot & ankle, spine, total joint, tumor) where the apprenticeship style is in place, read 1:1 OR experience.
One other downside though, is that the rotation which has too many people scrubbed also has the most malignant personalities (except for 2 surgeons I can think of right now) and clinic is long and painful.

that's it briefly...

:sick:

gotta stick up for the program at Wayne... As a Wayne Student who has just rotated in the trauma month at DRH, i wanna confirm and dismiss a few of the comments.

in one month i saw buttloads of Ilizarov frame applications, complex acetabulum repairs, acute pelvic trauma. I would look up information about the cases, and see my attendings have written chapters in the texts i read!!!

The residents (for the most part) are cool as h$%&, and i find that the only people they dislike (as a whole) are lazy or humorless personalities. They all work their Tails off, but get along reasonably well. There is a real team mentality here.

As a student here, i was second assist on 80% of the cases i saw, a couple times i was first assist (i don't know what the other people were talking about) although there were a few times where i was 3rd in line, fighting for the retractor.

Patient population? it's Detroit-- the really crazy stuff doesn't seem to happen to the pretentious snobs that live a few cities to the north-- i think affluency is inversely related to quality of trauma sometimes.

don't know what else to say.. The attendings did tell me the program lacks Sports, but excels at Trauma, and Joints

Take me, and all the others though, with a grain of salt, but i personally felt it to be the best month of medical school.

If you have a REAL talk with the residents (which is almost impossible as a rotating student who is trying to show his/her best), you'd be surprised to find out a few things.

All I gotta say is the residents there had a big private meeting last year where all they did was complain about how lousy the program was. I doubt that happens at many programs. What you have to remember is, as much as you're putting on a show, they're putting on a show for you too. And that goes for any program.

Tillaux
(I thought all the trauma attendings were really cool, if you want something positive)

As a current ortho applicant and wayne state student I must stick up for our program. Yes it's true that as a student there is a ton of politics that we are sheilded from, but working with a team that closely for a period of time we get to see the truth of a program. DMC's program lacks sports and spine but is heavy into joints and trauma. You get tons of OR time, and its never a battle to get in after your intern year. You rotate at a variety of hospitals, with DRH being very malignant but the rest of the year being very good.

As far as the residents go, they are all really cool. A little tension between some of the older guys ( 2 programs joined a few years ago) but the young guys get along great.

Detroit, what can you say, there are better cities out there. You can't beat it for pathology or trauma. The city is improving everyday, with a new football and baseball stadium just down the street from the campus. Downtown is turning around and in the next few years will be a much better place.

It sounds like Tillaux is really bitter, but I'd be happy if less of you apply- it only makes my chances better

Not to sound like too much of a med student, but any more info on the Written Test at WSU?
I've heard 9 separate 30 min. interviews. What are they like? I'll be there 12/6 unless i get something else in the meantime (unlikely) c ya fools on the trail of tears

Man, you guys are making me regret taking my WSU interview and I just bought the ticket today. Damn. Not having sports and spine? That's where all the money is! You can go anywhere and learn trauma. I'm going to have to think about this.
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Not to further depress Wayne State potentials but a couple of other things you may not know...but should know and ASK while there.
1) Hutzel (the hospital once housing the vast majority of elective ortho procedures) is closing or has already closed--> Last year when I tried to find out what the plan was I heard some talk of moving to hospital A, B, or C which I read as "WE DUNNO".
2) Faculty retention remains a problem. Just lost their biggest Name Orthopod (Moed - Trauma Surgeon) to become chair at St. Louis. Don't know if his 4 surgeon "crew" will follow.
3) Strong in Total Joints? Where'd you hear that one? If you compare to other programs which have entire wings of rooms filled with hip and knee replacements you'd realize that joints haven't been a strength since Fitzgerald left in late 90's to be chair out east.
Luckily a couple of the community hospitals have a number of joints going.

On the positive side, it remains a fully accredited program with graduates obtaining fellowships in the field of their choice.

Program has excellent potential...Wish I knew how to fix the many problems...

Do any students CURRENTLY there have any updated info?
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the more current stuff as far as i know about wayne...

1) generally speaking, i love this program. i have rotated at like 4 places where i feel i have in depth expirience with the program, and this place is definitely as good as other places that everyone else likes...


2.)Moed is leaving. no one knows if the crew is too, but i have heard rumors both ways.

3) I think the viewpoint on "learning Trauma anywhere" is simplistic. Furthermore, their joint guys are some of the most famous joint guys in the country. So here you will see the most complicated revisions, and then when you spend time at the two community hospitals you will do all of the normal primary revisions.... joint is fine.

3 Spine is done at Univ of Michigan... i wouldn't sweat that at all... that is covered.


4 the money question,,, where will they go.. Remember that trauma will be at the level one trauma center (same place). peds, done at children's hospital of michigan. I hear, that the elective stuff, is going to be done at a neighboring city where they will buy a 'surgical center' for their elective cases...

5 guys (and gals)... Seriously, wayne is a great place. it is going to be high on my list...

hope this helps

My point about learning trauma anywhere is that unless you plan on doing a trauma fellowship and working in a level one trauma center forever, most residents will get adequate trauma experience at any program. Trauma does not pay the bills for a lot of guys and a strong foundation in arthroscopy and total joints is a must for anyone considering a private practice. If trauma is your thing, then good for you as there are many cities that will need your services, but for me, I just want a busy private practice with basic fractures and minimal call. I didn't mean to imply that an eduation in skeletal trauma was not important.

as another former wayne student, i've got to speak up in support. i rotated on total joints as a MS4 and took trauma call at receiving, and both experiences were fantastic.

1. the jonts team was myself, the chief and attending(nasser) for the whole month. nasser was an incredible person to work with, for what he taught about joints but also for his teaching on being a good surgeon in general. he treated me as a colleague and friend. i would work with him again any day.
we had some very difficult revisions and i was glad for the chance to see what i saw. the chief i was with was very competent.
2.trauma at receiving was also a great experience b/c of the residents who are there. all of them have excellent clinical skills and were a cohesive unit. the "group" that sometimes is in the OR happens b/c moed works on some complex pelvic/acetabulum trauma and the chance to see it is rare. the comment about closing is unfounded.
sure, wayne has some weaknesses, and i don't know about moed and his leaving. what i do know is that many other programs put on a very hard sell. wayne is not so much that way, but what they have to offer is real, not some figure of imagination in a power point presentation.
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after re-reading i wanted to note that nasser is not the only guy doing joints at wayne. i wanted to emphasize the 1:1 nature of the rotation.

Unfortanetly all we have is rumors, I'm interviewing at Wayne in a few weeks and hopefully things will be clarified. But from what I heard:
1. Elective Surgey will be done at Madison Community Hospital, a small hospital that is currently under renovation in the suburbs of Detroit, not far from Beaumont Hospital. The rumor is that they are buying it or already have bought it. Hutzel is currently closing. OB/GYN, the main part of the hospital has already moved, optho is staying but in the East part (Kresge Eye Institute), and ortho will be moving soon.
2. Trauma- We all know Moed is leaving, I heard some of the team is going some is staying, hopefully this will be clarified. But either way DRH is a great trauma hospital and I'm sure they will hire some good trauma docs. The General Surgey Department ( Drs Ledgerwood and Lucas) will demand it.
3. Experience- I'm sure one will continue to get great training at Wayne. If they end up in suburbs this will only act to increase their volume of elective cases as many of the locals have hesitation on being operated on downtown and would prefer the 'burbs. The faculity is great, like to teach and do interesting cases. Peds experience is highly rated and other local instituitons send their residents to CHM for peds training. You have your choice of 2 places to go for spine and I heard it was pretty good.

So I wouldn't cancel my interview and at least come see what they have to offer.

Wayne?

I think the program is folding or going broke.

OK, not that I blame anyone for having a negative outlook on anything having to do with Detroit. Heaven knows that I did! Any one who was at MCW on Match Day 2001 will remember the sour look on my face after reading my match letter. Not that I wasn't just happy to match somewhere, but Detroit was not exactly my first choice. Anyhow, with that said, the first two years were tough and we have gone through some changes, but overall I would rate the experience a B+/A-. Here is the truth about what's gone on and what is happening now.

1. It is true that our most well-known Traumatoligists left for St. Louis this past fall. They are very much missed, but their legacy is living on in the teaching of the residents which have been fortunate to learn from them in the past. Our main trauma hospital Detroit Recieving is still open and will be (forever, it seems) and is mainly a resident run hospital as far as orthopedics is concerned, for the time being. This means more hands on OR time, but less teaching from world class attendings. The current attending staff at DRH is more than capable of teahcing trauma and guess what, there is still lots of it. They did 6 femoral nails last week alone. It is true that as of now we aren't doing any acetabulum or pelvis surgery. If there is anyone out there who wants to spend 13 hours holding hook (or sometimes just standing there), then let me know, I will give you Dr. Moed's email address. I am sure that his residents n St. Louis could use the help as I hear they are extrememly busy down there. Like I said before we miss the Trauma 4, some of us more than others, but the fact remains that we get plenty of trauma and plenty of cases. I logged 100 cases in 3 months as the PGY-2, yes 30 were I&D's, but I can count 4 Schatzker 5's and at least 10 ankles that I did "skin-to-skin" under the watchful eye of the PGY-5. When you are evaluating programs during interviews, don't be fooled by the fact that some places promise early operative experience. You will get to operate when the person in charge feels that you are mentally, physically and emotionall prepared t do so, no sooner and no later. Some senior residents and some attendings have a lower threshold for letting the juniors operate, you just have to be prepared when they give you the chance. That being said, you will get the chance at our program.

2. We did close one of our main hospitals where we did a lot of ortho work. However, in it's place we opened up an all Orthopedics hospital in the Burbs, with 4 giant, brand spanking new OR's, all ortho nurses (you will learn to appreciate this), in house PT/OT, etc. It is turning out to an excellent addition to our already strong program, and it will only get better.

3. For 6 weeks of the PGY-2 to PGY 4 years we do a rotation at a large community hospital in the surburbs where total joints is the name of the game. I did 40 in six weeks, along with another 50 general ortho cases. 2 out of the 6 surgeons are Joint fellowship trained, and another one is Peds.

4. Someone said that we didn't do spine?! Not true, as PGY-3's we do 3 months of dedicated one-to-one Spine training with a community doc. It's a great experience and typically guys are putting in pedicle screws on day 1. The other 4 go to Ann Arbor to do a nice laid back 3 months with a group of world class Spine Surgeons.

5. Sports-definitely a weakness of our program... However, the amount of cases that we do is going up every year and in the near future we will likely have a second dedicated mentor rotation with a Sports guy who finished his fellowship 3 years ago.

6. Weaknesses: Sports, Detroit, Detroit.
7. Strengths: Solid academic and community exposure with a breadth of training that is not obtainable in most locations (I.E. we have a tumor rotation, foot and ankle, spine, sports, trauma, hand, peds, joints, general ortho) all here in Detroit. Clearly, the residents are not STRANGE as someone suggested.

I encourage you all to email me with questions.and to plan on coming to Detroit to interveiw this winter. By the way, we typically interview only 50 people and take 8 every year, how do you like those odds?

Has anyone heard from Wayne State? I was offered an interview (choice of dates December 12, December 13, January 9, or January 10) and responded back with my preference. I haven't heard anything more from them. Has anyone who responded to an interview request heard a confirmation back?

Thanks and best regards,

Mike

Wayne rejected me so how much of a loser am I?
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