In case of a cloudy monday....

While I am preparing my ROL, I am also mentally preparing for the possibility of an unmatched monday and a subsequent scramble. Could any one care to name a couple programs that have historically taken applicants that did not match the first time? This may be useful when thinking of a list of programs to do surgical prelims. You can PM me if you'd like.

I appreciate it!

Loyola

There are generally programs that don't offer interviews to second time applicants no matter what. There are many of those. Here are a few who do interview second timers, and many of them have matched second timers as well.
Allegheny
DMC
Marshall
West Virginia
MCW
Toledo
Wright State
Virginia Common Wealth
U Kentucky
St. Luke's, PA
Albany NY
Banner AZ
UMKC

Just as important (actually more) to know about where to scramble to a prelim spot is whether they will give you the rotations you need to qualify as an ortho intern year. You want to have those rotations so you are eligible for the PGY 2 spots that come up. This year, for example, there have been at least 5 programs with PGY2 spots open up to start this summer that I'm aware of. You'd be surprised how far from meeting the ortho intern year requirements most surgery prelim years are. You want to look at the requirements on the ACGME website and have those printed off on scramble day. It's a good idea to ask up front whether they will be able to give you those rotations or not. What you'll find at most places is that they are simply looking for a warm body to take a month or two of night float and spread the call pool out for their categorical general surgery interns. It's one thing to be at a place you want to get into the next time around, but it's also nice to be somewhere that you can get the rotations incase those PGY2 spots open up, and you never know where they'll pop up.

Also, if you have to scramble, try to go somewhere you would like to work and live. The options may not be plentiful, but usually ortho applicants are among the stronger applicants for these spots, and you should have the upper hand. Also, make sure you're program knows what in the world the scramble is and how to help you with it (not just for the ortho spots that actually never exist, but for surgery prelim spots). You may be better off going through your general surgery department for the scramble (my general surgery department is far and away more knowledgable about the scramble and how to help than my ortho department). Actually, my ortho department hindered me in the scramble, but the gen surg folks were able to help pick up the pieces.

It's good to have a plan of what you will do if you don't match. I did not, and it was awful. Read on the NRMP website about how the scramble works. I can almost guarantee your ortho department doesn't have a clue. They're generally not concerned about helping those who don't match.

Overall, most folks will match well and be very happy. Hopefully you'll be one of those and not need to think about any of this. However, if you should have to don't hesitate to PM.

Im just sending this to everyone so you know not to believe any rumor you hear just in case black monday doesnt go your way. I was a good applicant last year and I did not match. I heard every rumor out there about where to apply, where not to, what to do with my year. In the end, just do what you think is best for your application and apply everywhere you would be interested in.

This year I was offered almost 30 interviews and I went to 18. After what I heard I was not expecting anything close to this number, but I said what the hell it's just money and applied everywhere I liked.

The places I went to this year include: Case Western, JPS, UT-San Antonio, Michigan, Ohio State, UT-Southwestern, LSU, Emory, Rush, Dartmouth, UT-Houston, Baylor, Vanderbilt, USC, Upenn, Florida, Wash U, NYU-HJD.

I cancled Virgina commonwealth, Texas Tech, Galveston, William beaumont, UC-irvine, UCLA-harbor, South florida, University Illinois Chicago, UNC

So all these programs at least interview 2nd time applicants, and some of these places I even interviewed at last year. I also got interviews that rejected me last year. I heard many rumors about programs that I got interviews at that they refuse to interview medical school graduates/ reapplicants. Just apply everywhere!!!! I havent matched yet but I am as confiedent as I can be that this year will be different. As a disclaimer though, I have good numbers on my application (250's/AOA), and I'm still not sure what happened last year. I hope for the best this year.

Good Luck to Everyone, because not matching sucks and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I also found that I got invitations where I got rejections last year, but I also got rejections where I got invitations and a few repeat interviews. I would agree that it's good to just apply anywhere you want to go. However, I would say that the fact that some programs do not interview 2nd time applicants is not a rumor. This is from emailing program directors as well as speaking to rotators who've been told this by the program directors straight out. Some say they have so many applications that they don't want to spend the time trying to figure out why someone did not match the first time around. Others speak of a problem with funding since a year of the government funding is already used up on your prelim year (other program directors I've spoken with say this is BS, but it's still out there). It's no rumor, it's just the way it is. Having said that, I still agree you should apply everywhere you would want to be. There are plenty of programs that accept second time applicants.

I had one fewer interview offer this year than I had last, and I had/have over the "average" if that's helpful. However, I think your question focused on prelim spots and what to do just incase rather than a call for someone's application numbers and numerous interview offers. If I understood you correctly, I would still emphasize that it's important to get to know the scramble process a little and put the feelers out there for which programs take prelims and which programs give you the rotations you need. The other option is a year of research, which is a valid option. However, I think you'll find most people recommend committing more than one year to it if your going to do it because if you start in July you really have only a few months to get some significant work done and published before applications are due again that Oct/Nov.

Don't get too bogged down in this right now. You should focus on making a rank list. It's good to be prepared, but be optimistic. You'll probably match well and be happy. I would agree with the previous post that I wouldn't wish not matching on anyone. I haven't found out, been told or pinned down why I didn't match either last time. I hear the ever mystical "sometimes people fall through the cracks" and similar statements a lot. I hear the "I cannot understand why you didn't match last year" and "there's some randomness to all this" often at interviews. The important thing is that it usually works out well for qualified applicants who've put the work in. It doesn't always, of which I and the previous poster are proof. Be prepared, but be optimistic and match well.

I pretty much agree with everything said here. I matched after doing a prelim year.

The most important things about finding a place to scramble into if things don't go your way:

1. Having an ortho department and getting this rotation in July/August (BY FAR the most important, but I was surprised that some actually scramble into gsurg programs w/o ortho)

2. They should work with you in getting the rotations you need to adhere to the RRC requirments (I wish I had known about these before scrambling. You can try to trade for various rotations as intern year progresses but this is painful)

With respect to research, while I don't know as much about this, a lot comes down to where you are doing research. A few have an excellent track record of matching their fellows (UPenn's ortho onc fellowship comes immediately to mind). Some places have a lot of projects that are ongoing that can be finished relatively quickly. That way you can significantly buff your CV by interviews in Dec/Jan.