Scott Silverstein
WVU Staff
Posts: 14
(1/30/02 6:52:52 pm)
Reply THE ONLY ADVICE YOU NEED!
I read all of your posts out of amusement and think of my experience as a student, in residency and what I do now and....
If you want to be a high powered researcher...go to a big research center....or you wont likely be one!
If you want to stay in a certain area...especially a certain big city...staying in that area can help...you make connections while in residency.
*****Find a place where you think you fit in with that group of residents...
Go somewhere where there are things you like to do in your free time...just in case you get some...
Chairmen / faculty / probations come and go...don't sweat it...thats academic orthopedics....
Remember that most of the programs claiming to be in the 90th percentile on the OITE are lying...only 10 or so are!!
*******Don't listen to other people regarding lists and rankings...yours WILL be different for you then them!
No matter where you go...you can become a great orthopedist...read, read, read, and read more...talk to your patients...and be the guy who always stays to help for one more thing...
Finally, remember to never wear a tie to clinic...it cuts off the circulation to your brain.... (I never did anyway)
Good luck and write to the NRMP alot and tell them to knock off this 1 month waiting for programs and candidates...its stupid and creates unnecessary stress for you!!! (like most traditions in medicine)
Scott Silverstein MD
West Virginia University Department of Orthopedics
OrthoStud
OSRR Fellow
Posts: 92
(1/30/02 7:47:12 pm)
Reply re:
Dr. Silverstein: That pretty much sums it up. The only thing is that no matter how many letters we write to NRMP, things probably won't change for us THIS year ! and I don't know about the rest of you, but my attitude is: If I have to endure it till march 21st, d@#n it, the toads after me can take it too. Now THAT'S tradition !
At least february is only 28 days guys
BoneWax
OSRR Intern
Posts: 12
(1/31/02 11:20:16 pm)
Reply One other thing
People who go for second-looks should be dropped from that program's rank list ! The interview is your time to evaluate the program, any extra visits are for the sole purpose of kissing some rear end - not cool.
One other thing: I feel like I fit in everywhere I have gone, I just don't know if they feel that way about me! I'm not that hard to please !
timmytibia
OSRR Newbie
Posts: 1
(1/31/02 11:53:25 pm)
Reply one other thing
ummmm.
At several of my interviews, residents mentioned that if you were seriously interested in the program, it was worth taking a second look visit. Duke was one such example, but I encountered many others.
I disagree with your @#$ertion that people going on such trips are just kissing @#$. I have not taken any, mainly due to money issues, but I would love a chance to go back on a more informal day and see the residents in a more 'real' setting.
If you have the chance and the money to go on such a trip to a program that you are seriously considering, you are an idiot not to -- you'll be spending 5 years there, so you should do everything you can to see as much as possible, esp. if you did not do an away there. I doubt any program will move you much on their list just because you dropped by. But it is a valuable tool if you can use it to help your decision. If I can scape together the cash I will, and I don't see why anyone else wouldn't.
chill out.
Chaney3
OSRR Senior
Posts: 69
(2/1/02 12:21:36 am)
Reply Amen brother (bonewax)
I totally agree that the reason 99% of people go for these so-called "second-looks" is to move themselves up the rank list. Anyone who tells you otherwise is full of !%$#@
BoneWax
OSRR Intern
Posts: 13
(2/1/02 12:35:51 am)
Reply second-looks
I think the reason residents tell you to "take a second look" if you're really interested is to evaluate your level of interest, as in "if you're REALLY interested in us, you'd get your butt back here and take another look right?" There are some programs that finish their rank list right after interviews, so nothing would matter after that. But I would think that a significant number of places change their rank list (just like we do) up till feb 21 (or whenever the deadline is -- by the way anyone know when the deadline is?). THEREFORE, my take is this: if the system worked in such a way as to prevent programs from changing their list after interviews were over, then second looks would only serve the purpose of an applicant evaluating the program, nothing more, nothing less -- and I'm totally okay with that, and encourage it. But with the present system, you cannot deny the fact that if an applicant "drops by", this could move him/her a little up the list, if for no other reason than the fact that this applicant is showing a lot of interest in the program, and programs LOVE that !!! Some people have money issues (like you timmy), others have time constraints (tough rotation, baby, whatever), so they are left at a disadvantage. That's why I have a problem with it.
This is getting a bit inflammatory. We all must chill. And no need to call me an idiot.
orthohopeful
OSRR Senior
Posts: 55
(2/1/02 8:24:34 am)
Reply not the whole story
I went back for a second look at one of my top choices, but it wasn't to kiss @#$. I am having serious trouble putting my top 5 in order, and I just wanted to get another "fresh" look at the place. I hadn't seen the place in almost three months and it seemed like my rank list kept getting skewed to the program I went to most recently. There are lots of reasons to go for second looks, and if it moves you up a rank list, then I think that is the programs' perogative. Your arguments against second looks are pretty weak. It is widely accepted that programs rank people that do clerkships because they know them better. Should we do away with visiting rotations also? Programs are trying to match the best applicants they can, and many of them use the logic that they want to get people that rank them highly because those people are the most likely to be happy once they start their residency. It would not be fun for them to train someone who is bitter that they got the last choice on their rank list, so they have a very real and legitimate reason to want the people most interested in them.
One other reason applicants should be happy that second looks are welcomed is this: anyone can have a bad day. If you totally screwed up or were just "off" for the two hours of real contact you have with your interviewers, and it was a program you really liked, then you should beg for a chance to go back and improve their impression of you as an applicant.
The match system definitely has its flaws, but I think it is overreacting to basically say people are morally corrupt because they do everything in their power to maximize their match result. We are all playing the same game with the same rules, if you don't like em, you are welcome to sit the 4th quarter out and leave the door open to those of us who @#$%^ less.
Apologies in advance to anyone I p@#$ off. That is not my intention. Good luck to all.
timmytibia
OSRR Newbie
Posts: 2
(2/1/02 9:08:09 am)
Reply not the whole story
I agree with the majority of what you say. I"m not going on any second looks, but I do not begrudge the people who do.
I'm sure some people are 'ass-kissing,' but so is making phone calls, writing letters at the end in addition to the thank you letter, etc.
In all due respect, I am bothered less by someone going back to get another hard look at a program than by someone having their chairman call his buddy for them.
It is all a game to an extent, but I think we have gotten too cynical if we're all pointing fingers and insinuating that people are morally corrupt for taking a second look. It's just another piece of a long process.
Sorry if it sounded like I was calling you an idiot. I meant it in a generic phrase as in 'you'd be an idiot not to go into ortho.'
Best of luck to you all. If I see anyone coming for a second look at my school, I promise to be nice.
BoneWax
OSRR Intern
Posts: 14
(2/1/02 9:50:26 am)
Reply re:
I wouldn't go as far as to say they are "morally corrupt" for doing second-looks. d@#n, those are strong words. And I agree about the chairman calls, and letters and all those other tactics, and I think they are ridiculous as well, but hey, it's a rat race and nothing can be done about it.
I see the point you guys are making, but I still think these second-looks are annoying. I'm not doing them, and I, just like the rest of you, am having trouble deciding my rank list...what am I going to do, go to 6 second-looks to re-evaluate. the most you can do is 1 or maybe 2, so where does that leave the other programs you're not sure about.
I'm not arguing with you guys. We just disagree on this and that's fine.
BigDiesel44
OSRR Newbie
Posts: 1
(2/4/02 5:06:33 pm)
Reply Re: second looks
This topic bugs me enough to post for the first time. I think that second looks are a horrible creation, and 98% of the time are for pure a**-kissing. They probably started out with just a couple of students in a non-ortho field like medicine, peds, and radiology, and then every student in those fields felt like they needed to do it also. I'm sure a similar process is the reason for these miserable thank-you letters we have to write.
Anyhow, I am very glad that second looks haven't caught on to be a big part of the ortho interviews.
I really feel that one interview day should be enough to find out everything you need about a program, and I haven't been to a program whose residents or attendings didn't tell us to call them if we had any further questions. If you really need more info on the program, you can just call.
Can any of you guys/girls imagine doing the same interview tour again? Are we supposed to fly all over the country again? This is what might happen to future applicants if people start going on many second looks. Inevitably, people will start to feel obligated to do it in fear of being dropped in the rank list under someone that made the second look.
I do respect everyone's opinion. I agree that such things as phone calls, letters, and chairman's calls are all along the line of a**-kissing as well, but some of them have become a necessary evil. I am trying to keep this to a minimum. I told my No. 1 program that they were No. 1 at the interview and am writing thank you letters as a courtesy to some programs(although I probably shouldn't be).
Good luck to everyone. We're almost done...
BoneWax
OSRR Intern
Posts: 17
(2/4/02 5:51:09 pm)
Reply re:
I'm glad there are others who feel this way. BigDiesel, you were much more eloquent than I in your response. I think it's ridiculous to do second looks to re-evaluate a program. Like you said, if you didn't get a good enough sense of the place from your first visit, then phone calls to residents asking them questions about their experience there should suffice. If not, you're just &*!# out of luck I guess, because if you're so indecisive then a second look would probably not clear things up for you anyhow. And orthohopeful, I'm not "bitching" as you stated, and if this (i.e. second looks) is the 4th quarter action that you excell at, I guess you're just a stud man.
tibfib
OSRR Intern
Posts: 7
(2/4/02 6:54:20 pm)
Reply for 2nd looks
I don't think there is anything wrong with second looks. What you hear from residents during the interview day is NOT always the way things really are. I did an away rotation at a certain program, and when I went to interview there, the way the residents described things was NOT how things really went. I was having a very hard time deciding between a few programs, and since I was still in the area, I visited two programs for a day. It was really helpful because it was in a more relaxed environment, and I had all day to ask residents questions as they came to mind. I am very offended that people here would call me a brown-noser just because I did this. I did two 2nd look visits and both visits made a big difference in my rank list in the end. If you're going to spend five years at a program, I would go off more than the hunch you got during the interview because programs are NOT always portrayed as they really are.
orthohopeful
OSRR Senior
Posts: 56
(2/4/02 9:31:23 pm)
Reply whatever
If you guys aren't @#$%^ing then I don't know what that word means.
Do some people go back to programs to kiss a little @#$? Sure they do. And programs will see right through them. One of the big reasons I'm going into ortho is that it seems to be populated by no-nonsense people who would shoot down would-be brown nosers like that. My point is that there are legit reasons for going back somewhere, one of the best reasons was highlighted above by tibfib. Interview days are staged events and rarely tell the whole story. If someone has the money and inclination to get a closer look somewhere, then don't begrudge them their right to make an informed decision.
The match process is a long, grueling process that has some optional steps. Just because some people aren't willing to take every available avenue to ensure their own success does not make those that are bad people or brown nosers.
Chaney3
OSRR Senior
Posts: 70
(2/5/02 1:11:39 pm)
Reply re:
It is very true that programs are not portrayed on the interview day as they really are. Fine, that's a valid point that no one can argue with. So I guess I should go to 13 second looks because that's how many places I interviewed at. Where do you draw the line? Is it enough to do 1? or 2? or should I just spend the months of jan and feb flying all over the country again? Let's say I do a second look at program A, and my impression of A changes for the better. What do I do, move it up my list without doing a second look at programs B, C, and D, etc.??? What if a second look at program C would make me want to go to C over A, but I never had the time to do a second look at C? I know this is jibberish (sp?), but you get my point. It brings us back to the point that there is a different motivation behind doing second looks, i.e. kiss some rear end to move yourself up their list.
I totally agree with diesel and bonewax on this one. The interview day and subsequent phone calls to residents and perhaps even attendings should give you enough information to make up your rank list.
tibfib
OSRR Intern
Posts: 8
(2/5/02 2:55:36 pm)
Reply chaney's phone calls
Hey Chaney, are you 'kissing rear end' when you're making phone calls to residents and attendings?
Chaney3
OSRR Senior
Posts: 71
(2/5/02 5:54:32 pm)
Reply re
No, I don't think there's anything wrong with calling residents for more info (I didn't mean to put attendings, I don't think they talk to applicants after interviews anyway). of course not.
Eortho
OSRR Intern
Posts: 13
(2/5/02 6:03:25 pm)
Reply Re: Second Looks
Relax guys. I've been told by many residents that second looks really have no impact on rank lists. However, it can help you get a better idea about a program and see how things are run on a typical day.
Bone Jock
OSRR Intern
Posts: 21
(2/5/02 6:27:29 pm)
Reply 2nd Looks
I don't think that second looks are about kissing butt. And to those who take them, more power to them. Personally, I won't take any. I think that they would be a waste of time and money. If you didn't get a great feel for a place during your interview day. . . .guest what, it's probably not the place for you. For example, on the first day of one of my AI's my gut feel told me that that wasn't the place for me. At the end of the month my feelings hadn't changed. The opposite holds true for the ones that I liked. Just like people can smooze and candy coat the truth on an interview day, the same can go for a 2nd look. At best you're gonna spend the morning at conference, hopefully get to go to the OR and get ignored for 2 or 3 cases, and then you're gonna go home just as confused as when you came. Just my opinion, which is built totally on speculation.
