open vs closed letters

From what I've heard, I don't think that programs really look down on open letters, and they certainly don't consider them to be totally lacking credibility. It seems to me that most people write open letters these days, so if programs really looked down on them I think more people would insist on writing closed letters. I think that the importance of reading the letters and choosing a good one over a mediocre one is an important aspect not to be dismissed and you should take advantage of that opportunity.
Just my 2 cents... :smokin:

If my memory serves me correctly, the LOR form from the ERAS people indicates if the letter is "open" or "closed". As with applying to med school the general feeling is that "closed" letters allow the writer to be more candid about their opinion of an applicant and are given more weight.

I was told by residency director that closed letters are preferable by many programs, however, closed means that YOU cannot read it. It may be worth an effort to find somebody in the office who likes students and is all about them and is in the position to make a few friendly suggestions on which ones you may want to send.

Is anyone out there other than me taking a stand and refusing to play the game. I am going with open letters, regardless of what program directors "prefer". If I find three guys to write open letters saying I am the best thing since sliced bread, I will take those over the prefered closed letter that are strong, but may say I am a just a solid student, or have some minor weaknesses. I say if you got the scores, you will get interviews as long as you letters don't say you are a jack ass, regardless of whether they are open or closed. I am going to know what my letter writers had to say on the way into the interview.

If you indicate on the ERAS form that the letter is "closed", your writer will likely write that on your letter, something to the effect of "Mr. X has waived his right to view his letter under the Family Rights and Privacy Act" or something like that either at the beginning or the end of the letter. In fact, the instructions on the ERAS form indicate that the letter writer SHOULD write this on his letter. This does give a letter more credibility -- put yourself in the shoes of the interviewer. However, if you've NOT waived your right to see your letter (open), I'm not sure whether they indicate this on their letter. All of mine were closed so I have no idea.

Having said that, I'm not sure how much time interviewers spend dissecting letters to see if they were open or closed. At many of my interviewers, they just skimmed through my letters and looked at who wrote the letter more than anything. But other places spend more time reading the letters.

Bottom line is that if a letter writer likes you then there's no way he would screw you over and write about your weaknesses...this is especially true if all your letters are from orthopods because they know the game and how competitive it is. But if you asked a medicine attending (those anal jerks), you may find them writing about your weaknesses or anything less than flattering.

I asked an attending at one of my interviews (at a dinner type social) about the letters and how difficult it must be for attendings to write so many letters, etc. He basically told me that if they like you as a person, they'll try to help you out by saying nice things about you. They don't have to know you for 8 years or you don't need to have published 5 articles in JBJS for them to be flattering in their letter. If they like you in the brief or not-so-brief interactions with you, AND AGREE TO WRITE YOU A LETTER, then you can be pretty sure that the letter will be pretty darn good and that they would never list any weaknesses you may have.

Also, and this may be most important factor of all -- put yourself in the shoes of your letter writer. If you do not waive your right to see the letter, how much confidence are you placing in this person's willingness to write you a good letter. If I were an attending and genuinely liked a student, but if that student did not place any confidence in my willingness to write him a good letter, it would rub me the wrong way. By indicating that you waive the right to see the letter, that indirectly communicates to the attending that you have confidence that they WILL write you a great letter and that you WILL send their letter to the programs you apply to. Think about it, is he likely to spend more or less time on a letter that he's not sure will even be sent to programs??

I'd say play by the "rules" and waive your right to see the letter. Not only from the standpoint of the interviewers, but more importantly out of respect for the person you ask to write a letter for you. It worked for me and most people I spoke to who went through this. If you got the "goods" (grades, scores), don't worry about it. They'll write great things about you (unless you're a social idiot).

I hope this helps.

(By the way, the reason I know what my letters said is because at some of your interviews they give you your file for you to carry them into the different rooms -- everyone just peeks at their letters!)

I agree with Ortho2003, and I'm going with open letters. The letters that I have already requested have all been open. The attendings have not even given me an option (although I suppose that I could have requested closed specifically). I think that they are not really going to be examined so closely and also a really great letter will be taken as such and not dismissed because it is open, so I may as well read all the letters so I can be sure to send that really great one. :smokin:

Personally,

I agree with Micky on this one. I feel that OPEN letters are a big MISTAKE. Truthfully, it may not matter that much. But this is a very competitive process and you don't want something as trivial as that hindering your chances of matching (especially if your application is identical to someone else who requested all closed letters).

1. If you're unsure whether someone will give you a good rec or not, don't ask them to write one. I requested 4 ortho letters and without a doubt I was sure that all 4 writers would go to bat for me (i.e. write stellar letters).

2. And if I were a writer, knowing that you were going to see a letter I might not be as forthcoming as I would be otherwise. Definitely not to your advantage.

3. If you work hard, fit in, and do what you're supposed to do, then there's no freakin' reason why you should worry about what someone is going to write about you. The letters will take care of themselves.

Finally, I too got to see my letters at multiple interviews.

Short and Simple: Waive your rights to see the letter BUT only ask people you are confident will write good letters.
If you're shaky on some and worried, ask lots (>6) of attendings to write letters then go with your top 3-4. (at least 2 should be from Orthopods)
I ended up seeing all of my letters via the attendings' secretaries (A little flirting goes a long way
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), ERAS system administrators (go ahead and wear your tight knit club shirt to the office
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...Yeah baby), and interviewers who just dangle your recs, scores, etc on in front of you like a piece of meat.
Another tactic is the ole "Excuse me miss noon-hour covering for the REAL secretary lady", "can I check my file and see if all my letters of rec are there"...Then quickly read your letters.
Just some tactics I "heard" about.
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Nice tactics Hulk, I think I'm with you and BoneJock. No need to rock the ship. I'm sure nobody (at least a pod) who you think is a good guy is gonna write you a bad rec. Another question - what do you guys think about non-ortho letters? Is it to your advantage to get one to look well-rounded, assuming you dont have this like obviously stellar-attending-worship-your-butt realtionship with a non-pod or is the ortho-sweep the way to go? Or maybe just try and get a letter from one or two in case its a requirement somesplace? )

Micky, you make a good point regarding how the letter writer would feel if I didn't have confidence in him to write a strong letter. I really haven't thought about that. That is a much better reason to have a closed letter than worrying about what some program director would think if he reads an open letter.

What up,

Another question...when's a good time to start asking for letters? Is now good, or should I wait until later in the summer, closer to when everything is due?

Well, shizzle my nizzle :pimp:

Just FYI, at my school there was a student who did not get an interview at the place he wanted to go (did an away rotation there, had great scores) simply because all his letters were open. That was told to us by the associate dean. However I do not think the field he wanted to go into was orthopedics.

Jointspace,
to answer your question about who to get letters from: When I applied I went with the total pod sweep. I had five different letters and mixed and matched the programs I sent them to. I felt this to be good for a couple reasons: 1.) I don't think a single orthopod give two cans of monkey vomit what my internal medicine preceptor thought of me and 2.) most of these ortho guys know each other, out of three or four letters theres bound to be a connection somewhere (i am NOT saying to ask a person to write a letter based on his name but we digress) this will give you something else to talk about in the interview. "Oh so you know Dr. Bonejock in Cleveland... is he still as lame as he used to be?" and so on. Just my $0.02. )