research

Don't you think that the "big name programs" are research oriented and that's why they place an emphasis on research in their applicants.

If you don't want to be a lab rat, don't go to a program that is research oriented. That probably means not going to one of the "big name programs".

not once did I say that I didn't want to be a lab rat. I was a lab rat in college. What I am saying is that I don't think I should be punished because I didn't know early on that I wanted to do ortho.

I have to really agree with bonehead on this one. I didn't go to med school to do research... in fact... I think you're shorting your medical education if you do spend a lot of time doing research. Yes I know there are going to be some nasty replies to this touting the value of doing research and how much you can gain from it.... but please... how many people in med school do you see doing research in Family Medicine or OBGYN. Research in med school serves one big purpose... getting into a competitive residency field. If you ask me... the time that is spent doing research is much better spent learning the family medicine, psychiatry and other things that are going to make you an awesome doctor whether you like them or not. Unfortunately because so many people are chasing subspecialties now (and I guess I have to throw myself into that mix) research has become more the "norm".... apparently along with writing book chapters and all those other things that are "above the call of duty". That time would even be better spent exercising, learning a new hobby or heading out to the bar. Unfortunately I only see this getting worse... as eventually things like where you went to undergrad... whether or not you were in your high school orthopaedics club... took anatomy as an elective in elementary school and other things become important in weeding out those candidates who of course will make horrible ortho surgeons if you didn't do those things or finish 1st in your class. I guess I share bonehead's frustration as I'm one of those who rocked their boards and other stuff but did no ortho research and am not getting invites to major universities. 90% of orthopaedic doctors are going to be in private practice and not have a whole lot to do with research... period.

Hey bonebrokemefix,

Did u read my mind or what?, u said exactly what I was thinking when I read bonehead's message. Like I said before, I'm going into Ortho to OPERATE and not to be a lab rat.

spardi1

I sympathize with everyone as I also have no research and got rejected from places like Iowa and Pitt, but in all reality that is what I expected. I have to echo Twofingers. It seems odd to me that you guys are placing emphasis on private practice and operative experience, yet concerned about not getting interviews at academic programs. There are plenty of great training programs that dont care if you have any research, but I have noticed that a lot of people (including people who have not done research nor are interested in doing research in residency) turn their noses up to community programs because the lack of name recognition. To be honest, I feel lucky just to be getting interviews considering the fact that everyone on the trail seem to have monster scores, some type of research (arguably either insignifcant roles or projects in many cases), and almost universally have been very cool people who I think will be great to work with. If any of you were on an interview committee at an academic program that is looking to crank out more than just solid technicians and clinicians, it is difficult to imagine that you would not also use research as an important criteria for granting an interview.

I will now step down from my soapbox. I hope that you guys are able to get interviews at some places that you will be happy with. There is no arguing that this entire process is very random and frustrating.

For future applicants who may see this thread who are concerned about the lack of research on their application: research does seem to help a lot, but you can still get interviews at solid programs like Mayo, University of Michigan, University of Wisconsin, and Campbell Clinic without ever having done any reasearch and even without monster board scores. Whether you can match at said programs, I have yet to see.
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While you may only do research in medical school to get into a good residency program and you may only want to operate in private practice once you finish residency, I think you should realize that research is still important.

All of the private practice surgeons rely on the research done at academic institutions to guide their decision making. Orthopaedics is only starting to realize the value of evidence-based medicine and somebody has to do the work and it sure as hell isn't going to be all the private practice guys. The big name programs get their big names by doing a lot of research and having faculty who publish a lot of papers. The faculty at those programs are interested in research, and of course they want to have residents who share the same interests, who want to go into academics, (and who can work on their projects for them).

Even if you don't go to a research oriented academic program, you'll still have to do some research during your residency. It's required by the RRC. As a resident in a community based program who has little interest in any future research (and who did no research in med school), I still recognize the value of having some research experience.

I agree with OrthoOverhaul--if you are so interested in learning how to operate and getting into private practice maybe you should be more interested in going to a community based program rather than a big name academic one. If you think that not going to a big name program will limit your fellowships options or impact your private practice opportunities, I think you are totally wrong.

Finally, BoneBrokeMeFix, I definitely agree with your point about being well rounded, but I can't recommend dropping the "you don't see Family Practice or OBGYN doing that" bomb during your interviews or once you're in ortho.

Ok, I am a little less steamed than I was yesterday. I do realize that research is important to the betterment of all medicine. I am not against doing it, and I would actually enjoy doing some if I got involved in an interesting project. The thing is, I don't know if I want to go to a community or academic based program. I do agree with the others that I want to be the best damn surgeon I can be, though. But, I may want to teach the art of it and contribute to academia one day too. That is why I am miffed about not getting the chance to at least check these programs out. Bottom line to any budding orthopod just getting started....if you know right now that it is ortho, then by GOD do some research and don't limit yourself!

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Youare right, I could have done research in something insanely boring that I care absolutely nothing about. I could have cut off my pinky toe too. I chose to do neither. That was a choice. I realize that. I am not at a research heavy school, and research is not emphasized nor is its importance at my institution. In hindsight, I would have done some even if it was on amoebic abscess of the basal ganglia (because that is really going to help me with a career in ortho). Sure, it shows that you are hard working and motivated to do research. But, I really have no regrets about not doing research about something I care nothing about, although I would have done it if I know what I know now.

Let me make something clear, though. I am not hurting for interviews. I am going to be fine. It just would have been nice to get a few of the bigger name programs. It also would have been nice to get an interview north of the Mason Dixon line. But I am not even going to get into the regionality of this whole process, because it is so much worse than the emphasis on research.
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Youare right, I could have done research in something insanely boring that I care absolutely nothing about. I could have cut off my pinky toe too. I chose to do neither. That was a choice. I realize that. I am not at a research heavy school, and research is not emphasized nor is its importance at my institution. In hindsight, I would have done some even if it was on amoebic abscess of the basal ganglia (because that is really going to help me with a career in ortho). Sure, it shows that you are hard working and motivated to do research. But, I really have no regrets about not doing research about something I care nothing about, although I would have done it if I knew then what I know now.

Let me make something clear, though. I am not hurting for interviews. I am going to be fine. It just would have been nice to get a few of the bigger name programs. It also would have been nice to get an interview north of the Mason Dixon line. But I am not even going to get into the regionality of this whole process, because it is so much worse than the emphasis on research.
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And, if you are just going to address a question only to me...PM me. I was just wanting to get others thoughts on the issue, not personal attacks.

This advice doesn't really apply to anyone applying this year, but for future applicants: I too decided late in the game that I wanted to do ortho (second semester M3 year). I was fortunate to be involved in a case report worthy general surgery case that I wrote up early in my M3 year. This is the only accepted publication I have on my application. However, this has come up in only 1 of 8 interviews (and 3 of these interviews have been at "top notch" programs).

When I decided in february I was going to do ortho, I started bugging all the ortho residents at my program about doing research. i got on 3 projects, but 2 fell completely apart. 1 was submitted to the AAOS meeting and listed as "submitted" on my ERAS application. This is the ONLY ortho project listed on my ERAS application. This HAS come up in 6 or 7 out of 8 interviews.

so coming into my fourth year, research was the only weakness of my application. I decided to rotate at a "name" institution for 3 reasons: to get involved in more research, to get a letter from someone huge, and most importantly, to get my foot into the door at the place. a few weeks before my rotation, I contacted 2-3 attendings there. you have to be very persistent as only one got back to me. My persistence definitely payed off, I met with this attending during my first week of the rotation and was given two projects. One turned into a case report (that he wrote about in my letter) and the other is more of a long term project that I did the initial leg work for (this was also put in my letter).

So if you have the numbers to get into a "name" institution, but lack research, rotate there and get involved in research. contact the program before you get there as the attending already had these two projects in mind for me before I met with him.

so all my ortho research was done after midway through M3 year and this has given me enough to get interviews at >10 name places (HSS, Pitt, Harvard, UCLA, Wash U, Univ Wash, UPenn, etc).

I am not trying to brag or anything (so please don't slam me). I just want to show to future applicants that if you have the numbers, it is very possible to make due late in the game if you are aggressive and seek out ANY POSSIBLE ortho research experience. You MUST be persistant though, as only 1 of 3 projects at my home school came to fruition and only 1 of 2 projects at the "name" program came to fruition. take on all you can handle. if you really want to get into a "top" program, ortho research is probably very important. also, I wrote in my personal statement that I was looking for a program with "numerous research opportunities" just to emphasize that I was very willing to get involved in research.

And if you can't get involved in ortho research, write up some non-ortho case reports to at least have something on ERAS as accepted or "submitted". Then you can say in your interviews, "well, my home program doesn't have much research opportunities so I sought out any research in other areas for experience and to learn how to write scientific manuscripts." This is my answer when people ask why I wrote up a general surgery case repot and it seems to have gone over well. further, you could even address this in your personal statement, just don't send that version to your home program.

I just want to add that I don't think that research is the only way to get great interview offers. While some programs look highly on research, lots of others seem simply to look for a way to differentiate you from the hundreds of other great applicants. One place that I interviewed with asked whether anyone was an elite athlete or an accomplished artist -- anything to help you stand out. I know of people who were dancers or violonists who swear that those were the things that got them interviews at the "top programs." I think that research has become a relatively easy way to differentiate yourself, but just give yourself something interesting for people to look at and ask you about. Looking at posts at this site, it seems there are a bunch of folks with 250 USMLE scores, AOA at top schools, great letters, etc. So, if there are 100 such applicants for an ortho spot each year, and the "top programs" interview 20-50 non-rotators, why should they choose you over anyone else?

Anyway, who cares what I think...

Good luck all, and I'll see you all around the trail.