University of Pennsylvania

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you'll have to speak with their coordinator -- this woman named Barbara, but i don't think they do.

overall, the program was excellent ... will definitely be No. 1. the had a reception the night before the interview and it was standing room only -- lots of residents and attendings were there. everyone seemed generally very happy. the interviews were laid back. they gave the best presentation i've seen so far and all the applicants received a cd with the presentation on it. the tour was good -- tired of seeing hospitals but we we went on their helicopter pad and saw most of campus though the weather was cold. EXCELLENT PROGRAM!! the residents seemed genuinely happy. and their presentation -- heads above any other program i have been to. will be my No. 1!!!!

they seemed to operate a lot, were very busy, and a good mix of academics and clinical practice. i haven't seen a program yet, with the exception of hss, that had its act together the way penn did. you definitely missed the best interview on the circuit so far!

:pimp:

You probably already know this by now, but Penn only had 2 interview dates 1/17 and 1/18, and they make their rank list up right away after the last interviews, so I don't think there is any way to get in there if you missed the weekend.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news
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Thanks for your input. I know they don't have another day.

If anyone has any ideas on how I could interview there, please let me know. The more people I talk to, the more I hear that the program was as close to perfect as they get.
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hey man...

Don't waste energy on what could have been... It was a great place, but there are other great places that I am sure you have been invited to.

Not trying to sound lame, but maybe there was a reason for you not being able to make it... this whole process has got me superstitious. :roll smile:

I interviewed at Penn last year. I thought it was a good program, but not all that special. Penn is NOT the best program in philadelphia...Jefferson is far and away a better ortho program in most regards. But Penn has the Ivy League undergrad name and brand name med school. Its ortho program is good, but not great. It benefits from the name of the institution. Operative experience is below average, except for joints.

Jefferson is opposite. The rep of the ORTHO department is based on MERIT.

I liked Penn, but I went to at least 5 other places that I thought were better programs...jefferson being one of them (i didn't match at jeff so no need for me to blow their horn).

"Best program on the circuit"??? Are you kidding? What circuit have you been on?

Just in PA, Pitt and Jeff outrank Penn in Orthopaedics in just about every area. Anyone in orthopaedics with any knowledge of these programs will tell you that.

Hey Micky,

Where do Jeff residents do their trauma, peds, and tumor rotations?

Micky, what are you talking about?

I've interviewed at a number of top programs including Penn and they are all much better than Jeff. I can tell you that Penn put on a great show.

The residents are happy. They operate. They have every singe service covered. Everyone who interviewed with me was blown away by Penn. Their presentation was the best I've seen so far. I didn't have one question about the program, the facilities, or the experience.

The residents at Penn seem like one big family. The only knock is that their office is kind of dumpy. They don't have the glam of HSS.

Penn will probably be my No. 1 choice. And, btw, I am not ranking Jeff at all. Most of the residents at Jeff aren't happy and the program has a lot of problems (I know it better than you think) ... Jeff does a lot of spine and joints, but where's their tumor, or trauma, or sports, or foot & ankle.

Just ask anyone who interviewed at Penn last weekend ... they will tell you that the program is definitely one of the top prorgams in the country. While Pitt is very good too, the residents at Penn are much happier. Where else can you have a couple of beers with the chairman, a professor emeritus, three other faculty members (there were more there I just didn't get around to them), and most of the residency all in one night.

Great place.

Never said Penn residents weren't happy. I'm sure they are. That doesn't make it one of the top programs. And a great show at interview time and beers with the chairman is nice but doesn't make a great residency. I did enjoy my Corona though last year with Lackman.

Don't get me wrong...I liked Penn and ranked it #4. But to say it's a better program than Pitt is downright ludicrous. It's more tolerable to compare it to Jeff, but IMO falls short in orthopaedics.

Jefferson residents get killed their first two years...the place runs like a factory with up to 30 joints a day...but last 3 years residents are very happy and I bet my bile duct that Jeff Chiefs are better surgeons than Penn chiefs AND are happier. They come in, operate, go home. Doesn't get better than that.

Jefferson residents do their peds at Dupont in Deleware, which has a better ortho department than where Penn residents do their peds training (CHOP). See, everything at Penn is glamorized because of the Penn name. CHOP may be one of the best peds hospitals in the country, but its ORTHO department is inferior to that of Dupont Ortho. Not talking about the hospital, but the ORTHO DEPARTMENT...there is a difference. If you disagree with this, you have little knowledge of the Dupont peds ortho department...Dean MacEwen, Al Crawford, pioneers in peds ortho, both trained at Dupont. It is arguably the best peds ortho department in the country, along with San Diego, Harvard, and Cincinnati.

Jeff residents get perhaps the best training in spine and joints in the country. Find me one program where residents get better operative and academic training in these two areas. It would be a reach for just about any program, even the HSS and Harvards. The volume of cases done at Jeff is staggering and it's probably the most prolific program in the country.

Penn doesn't have that type of reputation in ANY area of ortho. I'd like to hear it from you if they do. Like I said, Penn milks the @$%& out of the Penn name...but that's the med school and undergrad institution making noises.

Jeff sees a fair amount of trauma...trauma in philly is shared by multiple hospitals, with Temple, Einstein, Jeff and Penn seeing the majority. MCP-Hahnemann (now Drexel apparently) sees the least from my estimation. But I think all of above see good amount of trauma and it's hardly a weakness for any of them.

They have a number of sports faculty at Jeff (at least 5) and Mark Lazarus is a very famous shoulder guy that joined them recently. Hand? Ever hear of Lee Osterman? They have at least 5-6 more hand faculty at Jefferson hand center.

In your post, you ask "Where else can you have a couple of beers with the chairman, a professor emeritus, three other faculty members (there were more there I just didn't get around to them), and most of the residency all in one night."...I don't know, but if this is your criteria for one of the top programs in the country you're in trouble. I'd rather have Snapple with Freddie Fu to be honest. So far, all you've given me is beers and residents doing the LaBamba at the reception...other than that, and their sharp presentation, why is Penn one of the top programs in the country? It seems you've lost sight of the 5 years that come AFTER the residency interview.

I don't want to bash Penn. Like I said, it's a very good program and I liked it myself. But the posts above were a bit exaggerated and I didn't think were very accurate. I was just being honest. I hope you match there if you loved it that much and I'm sure you'll enjoy yourself and get very good training. I've talked to many people around the country (last year when deciding my rank and this year as an intern who matched OUTSIDE of Northeast)...Penn is NOT one of top ortho departments. It IS without a doubt one of top medical schools and academic institutions.

One should differentiate between those two things, IMO...and people often get confused.

Good luck

Hey Mickey - Not trying to enter this debate - just curious as to which programs you see as top 5/top10 regionally/nationally, whatever. As I'm going through the process, I can see how my view of programs may be somewhat skewed based on how many residents I meet, how well the program presents itself, institutional name, etc. So, I'm always looking for another viewpoint.
Where do you put Duke, Iowa, University of Chicago?

bbmf...i certainly don't consider myself an authority on this...I would say the programs most academic orthopods would consider top notch are HSS, Iowa, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic and Harvard. Those are concensus top 5 that you would hear on anyone's list. There are a bunch of great proograms that are close but maybe not in that category...like Pitt, Case, Duke, etc.

U of Chicago has a strong reputation from second hand accounts, but I didn't interview there and don't know much about it.

+ Wash U

As much as Mickey sounds a bit over-passionate about the subject, his @#$%&sment of programs' reputations is pretty much on track with everything I heard and thought on the trail last year. While Penn may or may not have a great porgram with happy residents, the only part of Penn Ortho that is reputationally top-notch is CHOP. That was the one point where Mickey may have overstepped a touch. There are plenty of people who consider the Orthopaedics department at CHOP to be one of the best around. I do not know that there is anything gained in picking which of the "top 5" kind of places are 1, 2, 3, or 4, but both CHOP and DuPont are very highly respected in the Pediatric Orthopaedics world. However, as a residency overall, Pittsburgh and Jefferson definitely overshadow Penn even just in the state.

Nonetheless, all of this should be taken with a grain of salt. If you are not interested in an academic career--which the VAST majority of you will not be, even if you are telling your interviewers that you are-- then none of the reputation thing matters at all. As much as Iowa, Mayo, Harvard, HSS, et al. have the best reputations, I did not think that all of them necessarily offered such a better education than places like Case, WashU, U Rochester, UWash and others.

If you thought you would be happy at Penn, then rank Penn by all means, just don't be unhappy if every other orthopaedist you run into doesn't go gooey-eyed when you say you are from there some day. . .

What a cry-baby Micky! Sounds like you were turned down from Penn!! Either that or you went to Jeff. Either way, it must be tough carrying that big chip on your shoulder. I noticed you posted almost the same reply last year. Just chill and let it go man!

I?m actually from a Philly med school and have rotated at both Penn and Jeff. I think Penn is hands down better. You receive a better training, people are happier, and yes, you benefit from a great undergraduate and medical school. Jeff is so malignant that I know of several Jeff students who didn?t even interview at their own program.

However, the bottom line is that neither program is ranked the top five, and both are probably in the top 10 or 15. You will receive a good training at both. Each individual should go to the one that they fit well with and that they liked the best. There is no need to get your panties in a wad over which is better. Especially when you are not even going through the current match process.
:pimp:

"BeefCurtains".....best screen name ever!!!

Great points all around op1.

Beefcurtains...Wrong! actually the opposite...I was turned down by Jeff (which I ranked #2). I have no chip on my shoulder believe me, and have no reason to build up Jefferson. I was also bypassed by my No. 1 choice, HJD...and I don't have a chip on my shoulder about that either. The match process is whacky and you have to take it all in stride and be thankful that you match in Ortho period. Where you match is secondary. I was just responding to the exaggerated post that preceded mine regarding Penn. I really do believe Jefferson is a great program and the best in philadelphia...I may have gotten side-tracked a bit in my last post, but others were asking me specifics about Jeff's program, like where they do their hand, sports, trauma, etc...and I responded.

You may disagree and that's fine but either way it sounds like you're the one who needs to chill.

But you're correct, Jefferson does have a malignant reputation for the first two years. Residents have a great life last 3 years though.

i think things have gotten far ahead of themselves ... i know penn has had its problems in the past but the program, at least THIS YEAR, seemed to have their act together.

the residents are happy. they seem to be content with their operative skill (which had been a knock on their program). they get excellent fellowships. some go straight into private practice.

ultimately, no of us really know what the experience anywhere is like other than our home prorgams and where we have rotated. so while mickey has some very strong opinions and interviewed at some excellent places, he may or may not have spent a month at penn and things may have changed since he was here.

on the other hand, beefcurtains rotated at both places this year and i would imagine that his opnion carries a little more weight (no offense mickey) ... but again, to each his own ...

i think penn did a great job at selling their program and having compared it, superficially based on my one day there compared to some other places, i thought the program was excellent ...

just my 2 cents. :sick:

There appears to be a fair amount of regionalism that occurs when applying to orthopaedics as is apparent in this discussion.

As an applicant not from the East coast and as someone who has interviewed at some (I'd like to think good) East coast programs, I have to admit that the programs on the East Coast seem to have a different approach to residency training.

During my day at Penn, it did appear that a lot of the attendings were Penn trained, but they seemed to have an excellent experience. I also thought that to spend five years of your life somewhere and not be happy is not what I want in residency or in life. I do agree that working hard is important, but so is enjoying the company of the people you work with.

It was obvious from the Penn interview day that there is a lot of camaraderie (sp?) amongst the residents and between the residents and attendings and this makes for a positive learning environment. I didn't think many of the programs I interviewed at had that though they may have a slightly better academic calender or bigger names but all in all Penn had A GREAT PACKAGE!
:pimp:

just to be a d--k
in the past i heard from ortho attendings, scrub techs, and nurses that guys leaving penn couldn't operate their way out of a paper bag. or something to that effect. maybe a weakness of many "academic" programs lacking early operative experience.
that should stir things up )

G-love, I think you bring up an excellent point. If you want to be a surgeon, you shouldn't waste your time with the top notch academic places. That is where you go to train to become a program chair.

You learn to operate by doing it and you will do it 1000-1500 more times as a primary surgeon at a community place, or the smaller academic places.

If HSS or Harvard offered to pay off my student loans and give me 300K a year to train there, I would turn them down. Spending three years holding a hook for an upper level resident/fellow isn't my idea of training.

let the flaming begin...