Away Dilemma

it's difficult for anyone to really answer this question, but I say if you really want to go there, might as well "use" one of your aways there - isn't that what aways are for? i would go for it - plus if you are looking to be in that area of the country, doing an away will show interest in that region, which may help you out with interviews at programs in the vicinity

Two things I would consider before committing to an away would be:
1. are you a competitive applicant for that program before the away. hard work and impressing people on the away can do a lot for you (at least i think so) but you still need a competitive application.
2. somewhat linked to number 1, are they in the habit of rejecting rotators?

If you think you are competitive then I would certainly do a rotation there.

I did not rotate there or even apply, but it may be worth your time to ask your program director or anyone you may know at the program.

good luck

I am from the east, and two years ago, we had a student who rotated in Denver match there, so it is possible!

Thanks for all of the responses. I feel I will be competitive.
249 Step 1
3.8 GPA
A for all rotations
Lots of research, but just 3 presentations, no publications

Nobody in my Ortho department knows much about the program or any history of applicants that we have had to Colorado.

Good luck and please update with your experience if you do rotate there. I am an MS1 and also dying to get out to colorado (lots of family there and colorado is just awesome). I cant seem to find much info about the program either except that it is competitive.

Hey Man, I am a MS4 and was in the same boat as you, solidly competitive numbers, junior AOA and really would love to move to Denver. Did a away rotation there, worked my tail off and received honors (great comments on my evaluations) on the rotation but did not receive an interview. Its still a crap shoot even with a rotating at some programs (Colorado, University of Washington, NYU, Harvard, Vanderbilt among others). There were two students from my school that rotated there and the other guy received the interview and was from Colorado, which may or may not have been a factor. But it is a strong program in an amazing location and if you really want it (and chances are slim without a rotation) then give it a shot but its still a risk.

just to throw another wrench in this dilemma-- i have solid numbers and a solid application (i think), but no ties to Colorado (did not rotate, noone from my school is there, i go to medical school on the other side of the map, etc.). Basically i clicked a button on eras and I got an interview. on the flipside i rotated at Harvard, had an amazing rotation, received an honors, was told by the course director and numerous residents that they were looking forward to seeing me at interviews, and was sat down by one of the chief residents before I left and told "you are going to be able to match at your number one program, if it's harvard you have to let me know and i will go to bat for you." In the end they did not give me an interview.

My advice going into away rotation scheduling then is: if you are going to do an away rotation at a program that you have no ties to and has a history of not giving interviews to some rotators, then schedule another rotation at another great program (or two) that do have a history of matching/interviewing rotators. Wherever you go, work your butt off, be reliable and outwork but don't outshine the residents, be fun/friendly to be around, and hope for the best. also, make sure you ask for a letter of recommendation so at least you come out with something.

What programs are notorious for not giving rotators interviews? I know Harvard, Colorado, Univ Washington, NYU and Vanderbilt have been mentioned. Do people know of others?

I rotated at the Medical College of Wisconsin and received amazing letters from the attendings i worked with, excellent feedback from the chiefs, residents were looking forward to seeing me at the interview, etc. Got the old heave-ho pretty early in the game. That being said, I have a below 230 Step 1, and i'm pretty sure they use that as a cutoff for interviews. I think there's a thread with cutoff levels somewhere on orthogate (if there isn't we should probably start one), but you have to understand even cutoffs aren't "hard-and-fast." I received interviews at places that supposedly have cutoffs above my score possibly because they knew a letter writer, liked my research, or something else on my application who knows....

I think the best thing would be to contact the program director of where you're planning to do an away and tell him you're very interested in their progarm, give them your step score(s), grades, etc. and lay your cards down on the table. If you get a lukewarm response, i say rotate elsewhere. If they welcome you with open arms, you're golden! Either way if that's a program you would like to go to make sure you click the button on ERAS to give yourself a shot to end up there (at the most its $25 for the next 5 years of your life....and beyond).

AS

Can anyone tell me more about Vanderbilt and their record with interviewing or not interviewing rotators. It's on my short list as a potential away spot, but I'd love to hear more information. While we're on the subject, does anyone know anything about Emory? Thanks.

I cant speak much about Vanderbilt, though I know that they do not interview all rotators.

I did rotate at Emory and thought it was AWESOME! As an added bonus they dont make any of their rotators come back for an interview. During your month there you will do 2 weeks at Grady and 2 weeks on 1 or 2 other services at the other hospitals. At Grady you will get to see a TON of trauma and really be involved. Overall I was very impressed by all of the residents. They are easy to be around, teach, and let you participate. Not everyone wants to work at a county hospital but I think as a medical student it is an awesome opportunity.

a lot of the big name programs i think don't (read: can't) offer an interview to every rotator. when i went on my hss interview, i was told that they had about 100 rotators there that year, and they interviewed 35 of them!! i was lucky enough to be interviewed even tho i didn't rotate.

I would add Dartmouth to the list. I know of a couple rotators who did not get interviews, and they honored their rotations there. As others have noted elsewhere, it sucks to waste a month at a program and get nothing but a good letter, but it is also refreshing that they don't waste your time interviewing you when you have an extremely low likelihood of matching there based on their numbers.

FIRST of all, everyone gets upset when they rotate but don't get asked back for an interview. Understandably. But realize that just because you rotated somewhere doesn't mean they automatically want you. So if you go rotate at Denver/UW/NYU/HSS/etc, and they know that they don't want you as a resident, would you really WANT to go back and spend hundreds of dollars and more importantly a very valuable day during which you could have interviewed somewhere else?

SECONDLY, the bottom line is you should rotate wherever it is you want to go, as long as you are a reasonable candidate for that program. If your dream is to go to Denver, and you are average (lets say step 1 of 230s and average by other measures), the rotation is your best shot without a doubt.

Here's the math for a program like HSS: if you rotate, you are roughly one of 100 rotators and stand roughly a 35% chance of being asked back for an interview. If you didn't rotate, you are one of 500-600 additional people who didn't rotate there and your chance of getting an interview is roughly 5-10% (and that may be generous). And to be honest, somewhere like HSS probably is the most extreme case of this. So all this is something to be aware of, but ROTATE WHERE YOU WANT TO GO (as long as you are reasonably competitive). My personal opinion is that for MOST of the top places, if you are above average, the rotation is probably worth your time. Try to gauge the rest by that, but it's tough to give reasonable guidelines.

FYI, Utah is another one of these programs that no one has mentioned yet. And U of Chicago is ranking their rotators without requiring them to come back for an interview.

I know a little bit about the Colorado program having rotated there and would highly recommend that you rotate there if you are really interested in the program. They only interview a very small group (40 or so total interviews offered this year) and over half of the spots are taken by CU students or other rotators. This means that they are sorting through hundreds of applications to pick less than 20 other folks to interview.

Hope that helps!

To clarify:

Emory does not extend interviews during the formal interview season to ANY rotators or Emory students. Every rotator and student meets/interviews with multiple faculty during their month with us and obviously spends significant time with the residents. This serves the purpose of a formal interview session.

I don't know the exact reasoning behind this, but I know it's been that way for years.

Hope that helps. Best of luck to all the 4th year students out there!