Away rotation in Chicago

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U of C as well as Loyola are fantasttic programs. U of chicago has more of a big time research rep. Loyola is definitely underrated and often overlooked because it is in a city with several other top notch programs.

J

Hey. Not from Chicago, didn't rotate in Chicago, but was able to interview at Rush and Loyola. I liked both and will rank both fairly high. I expected Rush to be great and it was, but I was surprised with how impressive Loyola was. Excellent breadth and depth across subspecialties, residents have sweet PGY3 research block, good fellowship placement, and appear happy. Some say Loyola is trauma-heavy, but I did not get the impression that this overwhelms their experience. I am not sure whether Rush or Loyola would be higher on my list.

On a final note, I rotated at a great program (not in Chicago) that had less than 6 rotators all season. I think this is much more useful than rotating at a place like NW with 40+ rotators. Even if NW doesn't give too many non-rotators interviews, they can't rank every good rotator high enough to get a position. At a program with <6 rotators, if you prove yourself that may go a long way. But you have to want to go to the place you rotate, so ignore all of this if you want a good program in Chicago.

Hope that helps.

I interviewed at all Chicago programs except Loyola and will give me 2 cents from interview experience and second hand info.

In my mind U of C, Rush, and Northwestern are clearly the top 3. Which is No. 1 really depends on what you are looking for. I am trying to figure our how to rank them and am having a hard time figuring which I like better. They are all excellent programs and I would be happy at any of these. I will try to list some postitive and negatives below, but remember I didn't rotate at any of these so this is my view from limited exposure. I have listed these in no particular order.

Northwestern traditionally interviews mainly rotators with a few non-rotators (I was told 5-15). U of C doesn't favor rotators any more than the average program, and Rush does accept some non-rotators.

Rush probably has the biggest names and is huge in sports, joints, and spine. cover the bulls and sox, but residents probably not much involved. 4 residents per year, but tons of fellows. the knock on Rush is that the fellows can get in the way of residents. however, the residents I talked to denies this (who knows what to believe). Rush has tons of basic science and clinical research opportunities if that interests you. Chiefs get great fellowships. this years chief class is sending one to MGH for sports, one to stedman hawkins for sports. Trauma is a weakness as Rush is not a level I. they do spend 2 months each in the PGY-2 and 4 years at Cook County (busy level I). as a result, they are home call all the way through when at Rush.

Northwestern has 9 spots per year, but has tons of rotators (40-50). nonetheless, if you rotate there and get an interview (most do, but some don't) your odds are pretty good with only 50 interviews for 9 spots. they have NO fellows, which is a definite plus. Northwestern is a level I, but not very busy as it is located in the best/richest part of chicago. they do go to Cook County for Level I trauma for a few months in the PGY-4 year. Sports is a strength. residents say that they have excellent experiene in scoping. their docs cover the bears and cubs, but residents don't have much involvement. Weakness would be small amount of clinic (1/2 day per week). Otherwise they are in the OR the rest of the week, but as northwestern is a private hospital with private docs, there suppossedly is a lot of watching/retracting in the first few years. Nonetheless, they operate a ton and are supposed to have very good technical skill by the time they are done. Not much research, clinical is available, basic science is almost nonexistant. Conferences are suppossed to be very good with intense pimping of junior residents. There is a Saturday 2 hour conference each week.

U of C is a smaller program (4/yr) with very few fellows (tumor and possibly joints). The chairman Simon is huge in tumor so that is a definite strength. they work on a mentorship approach with the resident working one-on-one with an attending for most of the rotations. daily conferences at 6:30am that are suppossed to be very educational. again weak in trauma as U of C is not a level I. They go somewhere for Level I (but I don't recall) for one block in the PGY 4 year (I think). seemed like a very collegial atmosphere between residents and attendings. Residents are very happy. Lots of basic science research opportunites especially in tumor. besides trauma, very well rounded program.

all are great programs, hard to say which you should rotate at. Rush requres your Step I score to apply for a spot. Probably shouldn't bother rotating there if you don't have a high score as they seem to be very much into numbers. They actually had a list of all the applicants with there Step I score and whether they were AOA.

You must also apply to rotate at Northwestern and need a LOR. they don't seem as much concerned about numbers/AOA as most of the people I interviewed with were not AOA. No idea about applying to rotate at U of C.

It's always interesting how UIC is always brushed off in these posts. Yes, I agree with what the previous posters have said so far, and yes, UIC is the weakest program in Chicago. But that isn't saying much because all of Chitown's ortho programs are very solid, containing one or two of what some consider the best in the country.

I rotated at UIC and was surprisingly impressed. It's a large program with 7 per year. They rotate all over the city, going to 6 or 7 hospitals from gritty Level 1 trauma (Cook) to affluent and all inbetween. Only one or two big names among the faculty, no one huge. But a very friendly, and again solid, faculty. The best part about the program is the amount you get to operate, even as an intern or second year. They get a ton of time in the OR. The lectures are decent, some excellent and some not so much. Basic science and research aren't a strength and aren't hit heavy, but are not neglected either.

So, I believe they're worth a look. You can do much worse. Let me know if you have questions.

3rd year here getting ready to apply to away rotations...

after talking to a couple of fellow fourth year students who have recently blazed the interview trail I have found out that a common interview question is "So, where did you do your aways?"---my concern is that I'm a philly med student originally from chicago and ideally would like to go back. What message would I be sending to various other programs if I were to do two aways (my current plans) in chicago...it would almost seem obivous that I have every intention on getting a residency position in chicago, therby prompting the follow-up question: "So, why would we consider ranking you near the top of our list"---guess i better start coming up with some BS now...

I may not be representative of the entire ortho universe, but I did fifteen interviews this year throughout the midwest and I was only asked where I rotated at once or twice. I expected to hear that one a lot more, but it really didn't come up too often. With that in mind, talk to the people in your ortho department and rotate where you think you would fit the best. Good luck.

I agree with SexyD. If they ask you where you rotated that is probably because they didnt read anything in your file.

If you do an away you will most likely ask for a letter from whomever you worked with. So that will be in your application. And at my school my away rotations were incorporated into the dean's letter. If you get Honors from both of your aways, you will want that stuff written in the letter. So if they actually read your file they will see that.

I did two aways in the same city and I dont think it affected my interviews elsewhere.

I did not rotate in Chicago, but interviewed at UIC and Loyola.

I agree with Harvsorrow that UIC probably gets a bad rap just because it is the program with the least reputation in a city with outstanding programs. A friend rotated there and liked it as well. The residents appear to be well trained, but the coverage for so many hospitals and the Saturday morning conferences make it less appealing to me. It would still be a good option if residency in Chicago is a priority.

In regards to Loyola, I agree with previous posts and loved the program. When I interviewed with people from Chicago, there seemed to be an academic snobbery towards Loyola. However, I thought they had some of the coolest residents out of anywhere I interviewed, seemed to have a great caseload, and plenty of opportunities for research.

I had a slightly different experience with questions regarding my away rotations. I was asked relatively frequently where I did my aways, but it was definitely not a hot button issue.

Coccyx, if you want to return to Chicago, I would suggest doing your home rotation in Philly and two aways in Chicago. It is difficult to obtain interviews in the windy city and I would be suprised if it adversely affected you on the interview trail. Unless someone is a tool on clinical rotations, I think it is always good advice to do an away at the places you would really like to go. However, I was suprised by the number of residents on the trail who told me that most of their rotators shot themselves in the foot. Just make sure you go on audition rotations humble, happy, and ready to work hard.

UIC did nothing to entice me to go there when I interviewed.

You start out by sitting in on their morning conference, which was kind of long. The interview itself was 10 minutes with 5 attendings. The first question they ask is "What do your parents do for a living?". Then one guy asks you to tell a joke. Then they grill you on some stuff from your app, and you are done. That's it. No tour of the facilities. We did have a good lunch at a local bar, and we were able to talk to residents there. But few residents showed up and didn't seem too psyched about it.

While I'm grateful for an interview, they didnt sell the place very well in my opinion. Maybe I am alone in that view, but that is what I came away thinking. I think the big names in Chicago (U of C, Rush, Northwestern) did a much much better job per classmates' experience.

I definitely am not going to argue that the interview process at UIC is less than impressive or enticing. In fact, it was probably one of my worst interview experiences. I am also definitely not trying to sell the idea that UIC is the top program in Chicago and, yes, there are probably better places for the AOA 250 applicant to rotate. However, I do think that the residents are adequately trained in orthopaedic surgery after five years and that if a future applicant's primary goal is to end up an orthopaedic resident in the great city of Chicago then they should not be too scared by the negative press. Sadly, the interview process forces us to make decisions based on limited information and time. I think some programs capitilize on this by knowing how to make themselves look even better than they are, while other programs suffer from the impression they make on their interview days.

I will try and keep this as pc as possible. I did a rotation at UIC this year and, to say the least, I was very unimpressed. I do believe that you will get a good education out of your four years there. The staff seem to be dated, the young staff (except for 1) have negative attitudes-I watched in clinic as one attending told a pt. to "f-off". The residents for the most part do NOT seem happy, good guys, but not happy. There is one wonderful chief this year that will be gone and of no help for the incommings. There is sat morning conf every week! I will stop there. If interested in chicago, and if you have average boards, I would encourage you to rotate at UIC so you know what you would be getting into. I was offered an interview and declined-even though I am not in a strong position to decline interviews-I would rather not match. Hope my 2 cent helps.

Dang meatloaf---rather not match than go to UIC---is it THAT bad? that must have been a long month for you...

easing up on UIC though, I was wondering how many people each program in chi. tends to interview. I've also heard mixed things about rotating at specific places and how much weight that may hold at that respective program.
i.e.....
Northwestern definitely grants interviews to rotators (provided you don't act like a total bum)
U of C I have heard does not necessarily give preferential treatment to rotators when making interview decisions
Rush won't even interview you if your boards scores are less than 240 OR you are not AOA--i've heard they are huge on #'s
Loyola-don't know jack
UIC-well..... doesn't seem worth asking but just to be complete on the chi programs

I've read on here for a while, never really posted.

As a UIC intern, just wanted to clear some stuff up. UIC interviews terribly, I really was not impressed either and it is something that for whatever reason has become the norm here. It goes along with what others have mentioned here, the fact that the residents and attendings cover so many hospitals. For some, that's a negative, for others like me it's a plus. We get to rotate with scores of excellent privates in the city, and it keeps us from spending the whole residency at places like Cook and the VA. So for interviews, many are spread around the city and have obligations that make attendance at interviews difficult. And tours are fairly irrelevant in general, but moreso here as you rotate all over the place and one hospital out of seven hardly gives you the idea of what to expect. But we do give you a nice tour of the open bar down the street! Anyways, but enthusiasm is not the issue, in fact in my short time here the work done by the residents to improve the educational aspects has been remarkable. We have a great group of residents that suprises me to hear "don't get along." Couldn't be more opposite. It's a program that has places to improve (Sat conferences, didactics, research), but I will say can hold its own as far as breadth and depth of operating experience, clinic time, exposure to different patient populations and the like. It's a place that often is overlooked in Chicago, but I can say I will leave thankful for its training.

I am a UIC resident and some previous comments are correct and some are crap. First of all the any statements that the residents are unhappy or dont get along is flat out wrong. That is probably the strongest aspect of the program. The residents all work well together and are happy to be here. We have a great goup of guys and we will for the next several years. Yes we have saturday conferences and yes it sucks to be there every saturday, but we have to deal with it and you do learn a lot even if it is paingul. The interview day is very underwhelming and does not do the program justice. I matched at UIC knowing next to nothing about the program from interview day. The interview needs to be revised. There is a group of older attendings and a new group of younger ones that have brought some much needed enthusiasm to the program. As stated by many, we operate early and often. The program is very resident dependent. If you want to bust your ass and do research it is available but not forced down your throat. Over the last few years we have placed residents into some bad ass fellowships Mayo, HSS etc. I have no doubt that if UIC where in another city and not viewed in comparison with Northwestern and Rush, our reputation would be much stronger. For what its worth, I was disappointed to have matched here but have been pleasently surprised. Thanks

The negatives definitely outweigh the positives (and you really are stretching with positives). First off, the "early and often" operative experience at UIC is still subpar. You dont learn how to do the cases correctly and even as a junior resident you're double scrubbing/triple scrubbing while senior/chiefs are doing the whole case. Just because you get to make the skin incision where they made the mark does not qualify as "I'M DOING THE CASE!!!" For the most part as a junior resident your operative experience will be minimal at 90% of the institutions, but at least at others you're learning from better trained, and better teachers. As far as fellowships out of UIC - obviously the rep aint great and you'll have to bust your balls, stand out, and go out of your way to get a decent fellowship. No one has ranked that program in their top 8 unless they have a commitment in Chicago (Wife, Family, Crack habbit...etc).

Their junior years consist of a lot of scut work for the senior residents at all of the other hospitals. Their joints experience is with a bipolar maniac at the university hospital, although they probably get a decent joints experience at the community hospitals. In my opinion, it would be better to match outside of chicago then to match at UIC.

I interviewed at UIC 3 yrs ago and had the following impressions: First, the interview day, although unimpressive, had an element of authenticity and realness that did not exist at other places. Many places try to put on a show and sell their program, in a way deceiving or manipulating applicants like a car salesman. UIC had none of that. To their discredit though, they provided very little information about the program, there were about 3 residents present and one of them just happened to be there for other reasons and turned around and said, "well i guess I'm the only one here to answer your questions...what can I answer for you?" The chairman seemed aloof. The interview was weird to say the least. I was asked what my parents do as well. It was a panel interview and was quite stressful.

I spoke to senior residents and during that year happened to meet 2 graduates of UIC who were out in practice. They all were pleased with the training they got and considered it a "strong" program clinically. The usual moans and groans about Saturday conferences and to a lesser extent, rotations at several hospitals were mentioned.

Overall, I got the impression that the people who have actually been there and trained there have liked it, as is evident from posts here. I have yet to hear a UIC resident or graduate confirm the suspicions or rumors that I've heard and in fact they dispel them, stating in one way or another that they've been pleasantly surprised by their training and feel ready to go out into practice when finished. For whatever reason, there is much animosity towards UIC amongst certain "outsiders" that I cannot explain. It was the same way the year I applied (3 yrs ago) and things haven't changed. I think the residents at UIC have an obligation to stand up and make some changes to their interview day. Write a collective letter to the chairman and staff. Make them aware of the problems and the rumors circulating about their program. I would think they'd want to know. The interview day is very important, and having some sort of structure to it, with more pleasant one-on-one interviews, presence of multiple residents for Q&A's, etc. would make a big difference. It's a shame that a program has developed a reputation based primarily on a bad presentation on interview day. It is up to the residents to raise this with the faculty and make changes.

OrthoGonads, cute name, ignorant post. Thanks for your time. Anyone with real thoughts feel free to get the truth from those actually in the program. Others seem to have figured that out.

bonedoc007 (original post), when the time comes, be happy that you've matched. Regardless of which Chicago program it is you'll likely still end up as a good orthopaedic surgeon. Don't let a few anecdotes mar your perception.