best california programs?

come on, nobody? how about i throw out something people will respond to? i think loma linda is the best program in the country.

I can only give you info from a few years ago when I was applying. Note that I know great fellows, attendings, etc who have graduated from all the programs below, but here is my input from a residents perspective.

Most operative experience:
Harbor, Stanford, USC

Least operative experience:
UCLA

Cush program:
Saint Mary's

Best reputation:

UCD, Stanford

Good lifestyle:

UCSD

Best trauma:
USC

Best Sports:
Stanford

Best PEDs:
Davis

Best Arthritis:
UCLA, Stanford

Least academic (plus or minus)
St. Mary's

Cush lifestyle:

UCLA

UCSF: Malignant first year, then a great program
UCI: Was undergoing changes, so I know little about this program

thanks for the reply. i guess i'm a little surprised that we don't hear as many great things said about ucsf for how well-known that place is, and also surprised that stanford was so well-regarded a few years ago when you applied, since it seems like they only recently made changes for the better. and ucla always seems like a mystery - depending on who you talk to, you can hear completely different, pretty much opposite takes on that program.

As a current resident at UCSF, I would say that 1st yr is anything but malignant. It's actually pretty sweet. We do 2mo of ortho trauma, & 1mo of Peds ortho, then we only do 4months of hardcore gen surg (ie 2mo Trauma, 1mo Vascular, & 1mo Neurosurg) which are actually high yield rotations. The rest are rotations like 2mo Plastics/Hand, MSK Radiology, ICU, Anes, Rehab, etc. UCSF is getting even bigger with new attendings and the new Orthopaedic Institute.

ORS

I gotta disagree with you on almost every point. St Marys is "laid back" because there is little organization over there, NOT something desirable in training, Stanford is known to have a pretty cush lifestyle. UCDavis has BY FAR AND AWAY the best trauma experience in California. "Arthritis" is great at UCSF, Stanford, and probably pretty good at UCLA, but at UCSF you do so many prim. TKA/THA as 2/3 that as a 4 you can fly on your own, and Vail/Bozic/Ries is pretty strong. Peds at Davis Shrine is great, UCSF goes there too. Spine is top notch at Davis and UCSF. Hand probably best at UCI I think.

I think compared to the East, all Cali programs are pretty nice lifestyles, just pick an area that you want to be in. SD very different from Davis, from SF, from LA.

I am particularly interested in this topic as I am trying to decide whether or not I want to rotate at UCLA or Stanford this fall.

At this point I'm undecided about having an academic career vs. private practice. Ultimately, I'd like a program that has a good reputation, good Op experience, and decent research.

UCLA worries me in regards to the lack of operative experience. I mean, I don't want to be abused for 5 straight years but I also don't like the idea of a fellow-driven program where I'll be retracting and cutting sutures at a PGY3.

Stanford seems to be really up and coming and has a lot of potential. It carries with it a great name that is recognized both academically and in the community.

I guess my question is- are the rumors about UCLA and the lack of operative experience true? Does anyone know which programs in CA specfically favor rotators (i.e. take all or mostly rotators)? Some people say that Davis heavily favors rotators but has gotten away from that in recent history.

I really appreciate any response on this topic, especially if residents from UCLA or people that rotated at UCLA can comment. Also, if Stanford folk want to weigh in that'd be awesome too. Thanks!

lol bonediddly thats a good one.

I rotated at Stanford and UCLA as a sub I and was impressed by both programs. It is my opinion that the OR experience at UCLA is great and the rumors are greatly exaggerated. If anything, I thought the residents at UCLA were doing more than the residents at Stanford, but I thought they were doing plenty at both programs. Anyway, my advice would be to go see the program for yourself. I think you get great training at most of the the Cali programs and you should really ask yourself where you want to spend 5 years. I only wished I would have matched there!

Thank you! Check you PMs please

I am a current resident at UCI. Our operative experience is definitely our strength, and we are strong in many different areas. I would say that we're a little "trauma-light" but I feel comfortable that I'll be able to handle almost anything that comes in the door aside from pelvis/acetabular work. I would say our strengths are hand, spine, joints, and sports. We have two new hand guys, Dr. Neil Jones who trained a bunch of the hand guys in California, and Dr. Greg Rafijah who is an absolute delight to work with in the OR. Spine is mainly with Dr. Nitin Bhatia who trained with Eismont in Miami. Because of our strength in spine, I think more of our residents are going towards spine. One of our chiefs, and two of our PGY-4's are going into spine. We do most of our joints with Orthopaedic Specialty Institute with two great private guys and at the VA where you run the show but are mentored by a former chair of UCI who is now in private practice as well as running the VA. We do sports with OSI, Kaiser, and at the VA. Foot and ankle is strong if you're motivated with Dr. Ross, the former president of the Foot and Ankle Society.

With our new chair, the residents have more say in the application process. He seems to value our opinion on what rotators and interviewers we liked and which we didn't. Two of our current interns rotated here.

Its a great lifestyle. After your PGY-2 year, its all home call. Good weather, lots to do, etc etc.

despite my name, i will try to be unbiased here about stanford vs. ucla. i think they are both great programs in great locations with reasonably good lifestyles. i know a couple of recent resident graduates from ucla who are practicing in the LA area quite well, and they both told me that they would pick stanford right now over ucla. in regards to the operative experience, they said that they felt comfortable in knowing how to do most procedures in general orthopaedics as well as their subspecialty, but that they still felt like they were acquiring a basic comfort level doing procedures on their own during their fellowship as well as their first few years of training. in other words, they were well-versed in how things are done but spent a lot of time after residency acquiring the basic surgical skills that many people would like to acquire during residency and build on in fellowship and practice. having said that, i don't think it makes a big difference in the end because residents from both programs ultimately match well for fellowships and do well in practice. i do think that stanford is significantly stronger if your interests are in hand, sports, joints, or spine. ucla's big hand guy, neil jones, recently left for uci, so uci definitely has a better hand department right now. and i do believe they get to operate much more at uci and stanford (and also ucsf and uc davis for that matter) than at ucla. usually that comes at the expense of going to a lesser name program that is not as academic for those who want to eventually go into academics, but in the case of stanford, as well as ucsf and uc davis, it's the best of both worlds. that's just my opinion based on talking to ucla resident graduates and being quite familiar with the stanford program.

No love for UCSD? Peds is pretty damn impressive there. And the program seems pretty strong overall. The residents operate a good deal pretty early.

In the efforts of full disclosure, I am a recent St. Mary's resident. there is a lot of just plain wrong information on this post. St Mary's, over the last three years has undergone an enormous 180. There are aspects of it which are cush - i.e. the 4 months at st marys, the fact that the attendings are not dicks, but I would not call it laid back, non academic etc. You have clearly spent no time there.

First, the operative experience in all aspects is solid. Tons of joints, sports,spine (though there is a fellow),phenomenal hand, considerable onc at kaiser, tons of both hot and cold trauma. the peds is the same as Davis and UCSF.

The academics/didactics has totally changes. It is now a purely attending run show in the mornings one day a week. The research has teamed up with UCSF. Per resident, we are putting out almost three papers per resident over 5 years, and it is growing. There are a lot of opportunities.

The clinic expereince at Highland/kaiser is great. A bit weak at St mary's but very informative to learn from attendings. At the other places you run your own show. The residents get fantastic fellowships and are very well respected wherever they go for their operative skills.

the probation issue is no longer an issue as the program received full accredation after their latest review in light of all these attendings. There are, in total, over 40 attendings you work with. They are fellowship trained in every specialty. Do they have big names...no. Instead of spending their lives inflating their careers, they do solid orthopaedics and then go home and spend time with their families like normal people. They love to teach. Nearly every one of my nearly 2000 cases in residency was either me and an attending or me and another resident. You will really come out a polished orthopaedist when you are done.

It is funny how no one ever mentions Loma Linda. They operate more than stanford does, but I do not know if they out-do Harbor or not. I have been at both programs.

I can't take most of these posts seriously. On what basis can someone accurately rate a group of ortho programs? Does a resident/student in one program really know that much about any other program? Doubtful.
These posts should all start with the disclaimer "These statements reflect the underinformed opinion of this poster and are not based on any hard data".
If a post is written by a resident in a program, then I do find his/her opinion of that program's strengths/weaknesses valuable, even though there is a strong tendency is to defend one's own program. Similarly, info from a rotator who visited more than one program has value in regards to his/her impressions of those particular programs. Everything else is typically just hearsay and generally not worth the electronic ink spent on it. If you want to say something like program X has the best trauma experience, then back that statement up with some real facts or at least impressions from someone really "in the know".
In any case:
UCSF>UCLA>Stanford>UCD>UCSD>UCI>USC>St. Mary's>LL>UCFresno
BTW, these statements reflect the underinformed opinion of this poster and are not based on any hard data.

So My Loma Linda comment comes from the fact that I interviewed there and I rotated at Stanford. From a numbers stand point (after interviewing at various programs this year) Loma Linda out-operates (from a logged case load at the end of 5 years) every program I have been to. Happy now? lol

Based on this information, I update my ranking to:
UCSF>UCLA>Stanford>UCD>UCSD>UCI>USC>LL>St. Mary's>UCFresno
Again, these statements reflect the underinformed opinion of this poster and are not based on (hardly) any hard data. I certainly don't claim my ranking is more accurate or valid than anyone else's.
My main point is that much of the posted information, particularly in regards to ranking and/or choosing the "best of the west" in any subcategory, reflects opinons formed from very limited and often inaccurate data. Anyone taking this information with less than a gigantic grain of salt is kidding himself. That being said, the training at all of these programs (with the exception of UCFresno which is a complete unknown) is probably very good to excellent according to the faculty I have spoken with.

The fact that orthogate is an open forum makes your point about validity of opinions posted pretty much "common sense".

You're right, of course, that I'm stating what is obvious to most. The stress of preparing a final rank list is mounting, and I was getting annoyed with information that was not valid, yet still triggering some questions in the back of my mind. I guess what I'm advocating for is a "level of evidence" type of statement to let everyone know if the posted info is based on facts, expert opinion, or just pulled out of one's *ss (level 9). The rank I came up with is mostly level 9 in regards to the bottom half, and based on personal experience and faculty input for the top half. Realistically, just splitting hairs in terms of quality of education for the top half with each having a legit claim to being the "best". I'm looking for best fit at this point.

you neglected to include Harbor UCLA