combined MD/DO programs

brickrocket -

first off, nice name. i dont want to even know what it means.

I think it would be good for the DO's to have the combined program, but I dont think that I would have applied to the program, and I doubt that the other students from my school would have, unless they were trying to make sure they got in.

Now, Im not saying I have a problem with DO's (two of the people in my wedding were DOs), but for such a competitive thing as ortho, having a DO in an MD program brings up the question of "Why do they have to have a DO? Are they not matching MDs?" Its similar as having an FMG, but to a lesser extent, I think. Any deviation from norm raises eyebrows, and I dont think a program like that would attract the top applicants, who would spend their time and money on established places without combined MD/DO programs. Im sure the training would be fine, but the applicants would be worse and the final graduates might be as well. Who knows.

This isnt FP or medicine we're talking about here.

Just my opinion.

I am being brutally honest here. I am a 3rd year med student who will be applying for ortho. I have nothing against DO programs. But I, as an MD, do not want to be associated with the training of a DO program. If that means a combined MD/DO program...No thanks. I will not apply. I probably am going to get some flack for this...but like I said I am being honest. There are plenty of MD programs out there that I will be applying to. Many people may say that I don't know what I am talking about as a med student...and maybe I don't...but it is how I feel.

doesn't sound like a good idea for MD or DO physicians. to me, it sounds like a program circling the drain, trying to make themselves attractive to more candidates, because they're having difficulty getting quality MD residents. this would be a red flag for me, and i would not even waste the $25 (or whatever) to send my application there.

regardless of the MD vs. DO argument, this is a bad idea--especially in orthopedic surgery. general surgery is totally different, where there are unfilled slots every year--a combined program may actually be a decent idea. but in ortho, no way.

Yea I totally understand because a DO applicant that is just as strong as a MD applicant (board scores, research, experience) is obviously an inferior applicant, because they went to a DO school. You all will have to realize that once you get out there, that your all orthopedic surgeons and that maybe just maybe some of those DO surgeons are going to even be BETTER than you...but no you wouldn't want to train with one though...give me a break
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overall, MD programs are clearly better than DO programs in every imaginable aspect--there is absolutely no denying that. why do you think in the DO section of this forum, more than half of the threads are DO students asking if they have a shot at getting into allopathic programs?? you won't find one thread in the MD section asking how an MD student can get a DO spot.

i'm not here to bash DO residents/physicians, just say that i would not want to train at a DO institution, plain and simple. and i think a combined program would be bad for BOTH MD and DO residents--i think its a sign of a program in trouble, that is not getting enough quality MD residents. so in an effort to get more applicants (and possibly BETTER DO applicants), the program is opening its door to DO residents. something about that program is not appealing to MD residents (be it poor operative experience, bad location, little/no didactics/teaching, etc.), and i would not recommend that place for DO applicants as well.

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Most of the posts I have read are written by medical students that have no idea what real world medicine is all about. I am an osteopathic orthopedic attending praciticing sucessfully in the real world. I feel the need to post because of the bogus opinions coming from medical students. Many of the opinions/auguments are correct, howerer, the osteopathic profession is producing compent surgeons in the end. There are many routes to producing a compent surgeon and if it does not fit the allopathic model by no means is the surgeon incompetent. I am doing all the same procedures as my allopathic counterparts and doing an exceptional job. The prejudices need to stop simply because it is not the MDs that decide who is competent or not but the state medical board that makes the ultimate decision. To conclude, this aurgument is pointless. For those in MD orthopedic residencies, wait until you are in the trenches, when you are licensed by the state board everyone is the same period.

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i don't understand your post. you claim that people making the comments have bogus opinions, and then you say that many of the opinions/arguments are correct?? doesn't make sense. no one here is arguing that DO's are incompetent--not at all. just saying that a combined program seems like a horrible idea.

There are differences between MD and DO residencies is what I was alluding to but in the end a compent surgeon is produced. To answer your question should there be a combined DO/MD residency, in my opinion, the answer is absolutely not period. We should remain separate yet parellel and many DO orthopedic surgeons will stand by my statement.

Whether you are a DO or MD matching into orthopedics is difficult. I am amaze by the postings. I graduate at the top of my class and scored in the upper 1% on all steps. I am lucky to have gotten an ortho spot it is that competative. Personally, if had gotten into a crappy ortho program that I ranked last whether DO or MD, I would thank heaven. The postings show alot of gull, in the end, the best program is the one you get into.

interesting replies so far. i don't think its a good idea either, but the way things are changing in healthcare, i wouldn't be surprised if a program like this popped up somewhere.

i think holstein-lewis said it best. The answer to the question is NO...Period. This is coming from an orthopaedic surgeon trained as a DO. Who says that his colleagues would agree.

DO and MD programs have different training philosophies (possibly small differences, but none-the-less they are different). They have different regulation bodies. They even have different tests (with regard to the manipulation portions of DO practice, whether you believe in that stuff or not).

Bottom line is they are DIFFERENT and should stay DIFFERENT. Both DO and MD are very capable of becoming excellent surgeons. I think bad surgeons come from within oneself (whether its laziness, lack of talent, etc.) and not the product of their training (I am sure there are exceptions to this).

There is absolutely no reason to combine DO and MD training programs. It would become so hard to become accredited from the different philosophies of the regulation bodies of MD and DO residency programs and to satisfy all the requirements of each is insane. There is nothing wrong with the system we have in place...both MD and DO programs producing great Orthopaedic surgeons. It sounds like a headache waiting to happen if any program tried this in Orthopaedics.[/quote]

I'm a 3rd year DO student and i'll admit that I probably don't understand the situation as well as some of the more senior posters and I look forward to learning more.

Evolutionary had a interesting point (I appreciate the honesty) about not applying to a program that has DO because there might be something percieved to be wrong with the program. I'm curious, What do you think about programs that share rotations with DO residents?

I was thinking about trying to go the MD route for awhile because I thought this was true. I think that the strength of a program is determined by many more variables than the degree titles, then again, i'm only a third year student: so what do I know.

I agree that DO and MD orthopedic programs are, for the most part, different in training philosphies (academics, research, preceptor based, etc). Just like the difference between MD and DO professions, I think someone else said it best that they should be parallel but equal. I think that's why the AOA (American Osteopathic Association) tries to maintain our own identity as DO's not just MD's with training in manipulation.

With that said, I do not think that a program that becomes MD/DO would be weaker by any sense. From an MD standpoint, give me a break, if your dream was to do ortho and you got into a dual program...are you telling me you'd deny it? Well... tell me the answer in the event that you have to do a prelim surgery year to possibly not match again the following year after reapplying.

The quote "best ortho program is the one you get into" is very true. I know of a lot of DO/MD ortho applicants who failed to match that would gladly start up in a dual program where they could become a licensed orthopedic surgeon. And, just like DO and MD schools, there are good ones and bad ones. I know some very strong DO ortho programs that would rival (or beat out) a smaller community MD ortho program.

Also, from a DO prospective, would you really want the added competition of MD's applying for your spot at a program? Not sure if you would. I think that an integrated program would work on paper and help bridge the gap of MD vs. DO in orthopedics, but I don't think it'd work from anyone's perspective.

But then again, how about fellowships where DOs and MDs work side by side? That seems to work.

All in all, this is moot point seeing how a dual program probably won't happen anytime soon. Although, the AAOS does allow DOs to be members now...is the gap coming closer together?

i don't think a lot of MD students would apply to that program in the first place, and if they did, it would be their fall-back option. that means that the MD's that matched there would be weaker residents because they barely matched.

that's pretty much the way i would see a DO/MD residency. a place made up of people who failed to match. no offense, but that's the way a lot of people would see it. bad for both MD's and DO's

Been watching this from the sidelines with interest. I know I would not have applied to a dual program. There is a difference in MD/DO at least in perception by students and the public and I think it would be a weaker program that would have many problems. I think people would look at as a back up and the quality of residents would be weaker.

I can't believe what I am reading here. Is the consensus here that just because someone is a DO they are inferior to you? Heck man people go into medicine with different backgrounds and some choose to go be a DO. I guess Mayo clinic (or maybe it was Cleveland clinic) is an inferior program because they took a DO last year. You guys need some exposure to guys like Richard Howard, DO (You know that Miller review book that you have and the hand section for the Terescon Pocket ortho book that you have.) or Brent Bamburger, DO (that pesky DO who does the AO hand trauma conference with Jesse Jupiter). I mean if that is your opinion then I challenge you broaden your horizons and encourage others to do the same. If you don't, you may choose the wrong program that fits for you and the way you learn, just because you don't want to train with a DO. In truth, it won't matter, ever, just look at high powered fellowships around the country, there are DO's everywhere. Harvard hand with Ring and Jupiter, Barnes Joints with Cloesy, Alabama Sports with Andrews, and Eng Joint fellowship are some to name a few.

Point Blank... No one will care where you did your training or what your fellow residents medical degree is.
I am a DO in a DO ortho residency and interviewed everywhere for hand fellowships, Harvard with Jupiter, San Antonio with David Green, and Cincinnati with Peter Stern. No one cared. I just signed a huge contract with a private practice, all MD's, no one cared. I have a permanent Medical License in 3 states. No one cared.

As for the DO students that all have a dream to do MD ortho, I was one of them. Then I rotated out and found out that it doesn't really matter. It is all the same, but before my experiences I was just like these guys and thought that just because it had MD after it It must be better. The fact is, if you are good enough to match MD ortho, then you will probably get a DO ortho spot outside the match, or at least land a spot in the DO match pulling you out of the MD match. You will have to take a HUGE risk that most are not willing to take. ( A bird in hand is better than two in the bush.)

I hope that this post opens some minds.

i don't think you should^^ make this a DO vs. MD argument--i'm not sure that's what the original poster meant this thread to be.

it is very true that DO's get great fellowships and jobs--and in the end can be good or bad surgeons (just like MD's). but the training philosophies are different, and i think the programs should be kept separate.

supes - i agree with logjammin - this topic isnt a MD v DO argument, but someone just posed the MD/DO combined program question.

Im rotating now with DO's (im a MD) and I have no problem. There are good and bad docs of both DO and MD, thats for sure. the intern DO @ mayo applied to our program last year and was a stud applicant - he would have no problem anywhere.

I agree with a few of the posters that said that the MD applicants (and some DO applicants) would view the program as faltering since the program felt the need to combine the two. I dont see a regular MD or DO program needing to combine with the other unless they are in some sort of problem. I wouldnt recommend applying to one if a student asked me, as I would be wary of the truth.

logjammin (great name by the way) mentioned that there would be less qualified applicants to that residency, which i agree. i dont know what prompted this question, but it sure has some responses... is there a program out there that is doing this?

OK I see. That is the problem with forums. The poster's tone is not transmitted and is easily mis interpreted.
My Bad.

yeah, this is NOT meant to be DO vs. MD at all. and i would like to hear from both MD's and DO's.