females in ortho

So, I'm not a woman, but you should never let what other people say affect your decisions. To be honest, no matter how good your numbers are, you never know if you'll match until match day. I had a spectacular candidate not match in ortho in my class, and I've seen people that I was very concerned would never match match in top places. It's all how you attack it. Numbers and paper will get you interviews, but your personality, enthusiasm, zest for learning, and love of ortho will get you a spot. I had 3 women in my class match in ortho and all of them had that in common. My best advice as far as scheduling is do away rotations at places you might want to go and be an absolute star. Be interested, prepared, and inquisitive, but don't suck up. A program will always choose someone they know will work well over a stud or studette on paper who may do well. Also, there is know better way to get to know the nuts and bolts of a program. Nothing would be worse than loving a place on interview day, matching there, and then being slapped in the face with the reality that you hate your life there. It sounds harsh, but I've seen it happen to people.

Also, don't get discouraged by the jerks you may run into on the interview trail. Expect to run into bigots. But keep in mind that there are many programs that really don't care about gender, they simple want top candidates that they can work with. Good luck!

Hey ortho5,
I agree with xiphoid...don't let others make your decision for you. Go for it if ortho is what you love. We had 2 women my class match ortho this year too. Check your PM.

I do NOT want to discourage the women out there,

HOWEVER,

There was a time when many programs (esp more respected programs) were active about having women in their program.

That was a couple years ago. Now guess what? they have "just the right # of females" in their program and don't want to surpass their "quota". They specifically design the rank list so that an excess number of females do not make entry into the program.

Urology is going to go through the same thing- excellent programs are taking women right now because they need them, but at some point they'll "reach their quota" and won't want anymore (or be excessively selective about it). It would be "embarassing" to their program if 50% were female. This is happening to Ortho.

Now that Ortho programs have taken a certain % of females, the discrimination continues.
3 schools in 2005:
Very high tier- 1 female matched, less desirable place for her qualifs.
High tier- Zero females matched, all males matched
Mid Tier- Zero females matched

MANY ORTHO PROGRAMS HAVE "REACHED THEIR QUOTA" ON THE # OF WOMEN IN THEIR PROGRAMS AND HAVE BECOME ULTRA-SELECTIVE ABOUT TAKING MORE WOMAN INTO THEIR PROGRAM. MORE WOMEN ARE APPLYING, LESS ARE STARTING TO GET IN.

Here is the comment from one Program:

"we're not taking any women this year because we already have 2 women in our program" We will wait about 2 years when a female graduates, then we will likely be looking for a woman at that time..."

So for the women out there- this is discrimination for you, sorry to say. And I understand how ridiculous it is. There was this idea that "women had it easy" to get in before, now that programs have their women, they don't want anymore.

Men and Women are not on equal grounds in Ortho, period! It varies from year to year in each program depending on how many they have.

That does not constitute equality, and you should be prepared for that. (and Programs should get a grip with modern medicine- there were some 55-65% women in my med school class- expect more women to come into Ortho or continue with the necrotic old-school mentality)

The previous post has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have read on this website. I hope people don't take joepub's opinion as being representative of most users of this forum.

I think there is some truth to what Joepub said in his post. In my program, we now have 3 females after this most recent match. I bet my bile duct that we won't take any females in the next 2-3 years. This has been "hinted at" by one faculty and a few residents. We'll see.

I have heard similar comments from multiple programs, and hinted by even more. That is not uncommon in Orthopaedics nowdays.

Each program varies in their opinion about taking women depending on the number of women they have, and that is the problem.
The number of women in each program should not matter and the match should be fair game to all.

I know of a few programs that were enthusiastic about matching female residents. The biggest complaint later on was that the residents took a lot of time off to have kids or for other issues, complained a lot about the residency, or overall were not happy.
The rest of the residents were not happy about covering for the missing residents or didn't get along with the female residents.
Needless to say, these programs are not intent on matching female residents any time soon.
I'm sure there are also male ortho residents that complain a lot about trivial things but for some reason it carries a different connotation when a woman does it, and people tend to remember it more.
This applies to almost all surgical specialties.
I'm setting myself up for a knock-down, but I would not be happy to be in a small ortho class that had a lot of women b/c there is the chance that I would have to cover if one or more of them took time off for whatever reason!

I believe I am the actually first female to reply to this...

I'm a few months away from beginning residency, and just have a few items to respond to.

I agree that men and women are not yet on equal ground regarding application to residency programs. However, I think that the inequalities are often misinterpreted. There is not an extensive history of women going into orthopaedics. The number is certainly on the rise, but it is a gradual incline. There is a wide range of responses to the increase in women in orthopaedics.

A few programs are slightly terrified at how having women in their program would affect the way their program operates--these are programs to avoid when applying. Residency is busy and stressful enough, the last thing you need is the additional concern that your gender is looked upon unfavorably by your fellow residents and your attendings.

There are other programs that are trying to actively recruit women. Your own instinct will have to be your guide to deciding whether these programs are trying to meet some sort of quota or whether they are just trying to be sincere that they value female orthopaedic residents. Its usually a pretty easy call. Some female applicants are happy to hear that they are being recruited because of their gender, because in many ways, it gives them an edge over other applicants. However, be cautious of these programs, because many of them may turn out to be the programs that have been referenced in the previous posts as having quotas for the number of women they want in their program.

Finally, there are programs, and plenty of them, that choose their residents based on their qualifications and personal characteristics, irregardless of gender. In interviewing this past winter, I valued the interviews where the fact that I am female never came up with the staff or with the residents. These were the programs that landed at the top of my list, and fortunately, I have matched at one of them.

As far as the other concerns mentioned, I cannot see that you have many limitations in pursuing orthopaedics. Your board scores and grades may keep you from getting some interviews, but if you apply wisely, work hard on your electives next year, and get excellent letters I think you will be all right. Your gender and your size should be of very little concern, not only in regard to applying for residency but also in regard to being an orthopaedic surgeon. I wish you the best of luck. If you have any other questions, I would be happy to reply, however, this is the first time I have posted on this site, and I still don't understand what a PM is.

To all females interested in ortho:

there is a study in JBJS a couple of years back compaired rank level of a "cloaked croup" of ortho applications (ie all females names etc were changed to theie male counterparts), to the real thing where men are men and women are women. Take home is that there was no diff, actually the female counterpart ranked higher (but not stat sig. higher).....the moral is dont worry, your gender does not matter ---it may even help!

The JBJS article is outdated. As said before, it used to be that women faired somewhat better. This is not so today. If you want accurate results, check with the number of females applied to ortho vs number matched for 2005.

Bottom line, women are at a standstill. They need to wait for other Ortho females to graduate so program numbers are not excessive.

If you think this is cock and bologne, go talk to the PD's yourself about why they put a cut on the # of female sin programs, I didn't choose this. It's just silly that you're misleading women into thinking Ortho is an easy or equal match for them compared to males in todays applications.

If you want a surgical field with more active recruitment of females, try Urology now.



Many of you need to get with the times. The days of women having it easy or equal in Ortho over the last few years are over- get it?

Programs need to get with the times, more women are applying, more women are going into medicine. Obviously many programs need to get over their inadequacies, female shyness, and function like everyone else in this world.

For Ortho25 response,

It is true that there are a handful of programs that actively seek to recruit women- I heard of 2 programs in particular, and they are both likely the same programs everyone else heard about that was recruiting "a" woman. This is out of some 160 programs.

Others are not necessarily looking for a female, they interview one because she is a highly qualified candidate or they were very impressed on away rotations. Many (and I mean that) would prefer not to have anymore females.

It's probably not be because they dislike having females in the program, the problem is that they have "enough of them in the program" in their minds.

Yes there are women who match, of course, but don't think women are on equal grounds. I've seen more highly qualified females go unmatched this year than men, it was not this way in the last 5 years or so.

Go ahead and give it a shot anyways, there are always back-up plans to do.

I am currently a resident in a program that has 4/16 women (if you include our intern class it's 4/20). We just matched 2 more women into our upcoming class, both outstanding candidates (as were the males who matched). So, there are programs out there that are not concerned about just filling a quota, and you should not be detered by that. Of the 4 of us, no one has ever taken time off for personal issues such as pregnancy, or "other trivial things" (not sure what that would be?) but I guess it could happen. I for one would be annoyed if my lifestyle was affected by someone elses personal decision. But the funny thing is, that in my time during residency, the only person to take time off for a baby was a guy! Maybe my program is unique, but we all get along great (girls and guys) and most of us are friends outside of work, including with other years.
You shouldn't worry too much about size either. I've seen plenty of smaller guys in Ortho. I'm an average sized girl, and for the most part have had no problems with strength issues. Twice I have been unable to reduce a hip...once, my male chief resident couldn't get it either but my attending did, and the other time my male attending couldn't get it either. I've done more than my share of joints (probably a couple of hundred), without any problems. Good luck, and defintely don't let any posts here dissuade you from your application.

Sitting around on call with nothing to do. . . .

First off, I don't entirely agree with joepube. Women are still doing fine in Ortho. Strong applicants are strong applicants. If you're smart about picking aways and interviews, strong applicants will match. Every female applicant from Case Western Reserve University in the past 5 years has matched in ortho. There has been 5 total. They matched at the following places:

2005 - University of Chicago and George Washington
2004 - University of Pittsburgh
2003 - Ohio State University (matched and then declined the position.
Now doing anesthesia)
2002 - No female applicants
2001 - Case Western Reserve University

They've all been "petite" girls, but strong applicants from a strong medical school. Arguably, all very strong programs. In the same time there have been roughly 7 males to initially go unmatched. Again, strong applicants.

In short. Don't let anyone influence your choice to do the greatest specialty there is. Just be smart about your aways and where you apply.

Just my 2 cents.

By the way, I'm 6'3, 250lbs and can bench press over 350 lbs and even I couldn't relocate a hip. . . . . .once. We took it to the OR. Size isn't everything. Work smarter, not harder.

Physical strength is important in orthopaedic trauma. There are many areas in which women are not at a physical disadvantage including hand surgery, sports, spine, foot and ankle, etc. But I have witnessed instances in which women have not been able to successfully reduce a fracture or dislocation because of lack of strength. Yes technique is important. And yes, there are instances in which weaker males also struggle with certain procedures. But let's be honest...physical strength is an advantage in orthopaedic trauma. To state otherwise is ludicrous and turning a blind eye to a problem that is real. I have seen one of the women in my program struggle with a simple task like reaming out a tibia. As males we don't think about this but it actaully takes some strength and stamina to ream that thing 5 or 6 times. Just the other day the same woman was trying to remove a screw with the head stripped from the proximal tibia and couldn't. A male resident had to scrub to remove it...no techniqe here, just brute force needed. There are other examples I have witnessed. Reducing that tough shoulder or hip dislocation, reducing those tough subtroch fractures takes strength. I have witnessed females struggle with these tasks to a much greater extent than males. I have heard chiefs complain about having to come in to the ER to help reduce a pediatric both bone forearm when a female resident was on call. I don't know. To be honest I sometimes come out of that room sweating like a pig after a tough pediatric reduction. Sometimes I wonder how women can do that because I'm giving it everything I have in there and sometimes it's really difficult. No I'm no weakling, am in decent shape and wrestled for 15 years competitively so I'm above average in terms of strength compared with most males. And I struggle to get it done at times. More power to you women who can go through an ortho residency, especially one that gets lots of trauma and reductions. Sometimes I don't know how you do it.

perhaps it would be advisable to just find out where "joepub" is planning on doing his residency, and just avoid that program.

Get a grip Ortho25, it's none of your business.

Regarding the former post,
I agree women can be strong enough and should be strong enough to conduct the majority of procedures in ortho. Crap, reaming a tibia shouldn't be an issue. If she wanted to go into Hand or something, there are 2 ways to do it- plastics, GS, and Ortho- why the hell pick Ortho if one lacks the confidence and strength for work that is occasionally physically demanding.

They say hit the gym. If women who are less strengthy are not too active, at least take part in leisure activities that require some power. Dump that B-rated movie you rented and hit the driving range, batting cages, or bowling. Seriously, even this can help. Use the driver, at least a 33" bat, or at least a 13lb ball can strenghen hands, arms, forearms, shoulders, and axial musculature.

Get into sports if you hate the gym- rowing/crew, boxing, martial arts, basketball, tennis, etc. Jogging around your block and hitting the yoga and tai chi courses ain't gonna help much.

If you made this committment to be an orthopod and your not particularly strong, at least make some effort to improve. Seriously, I would gladly see an female orthopod for any injury I have, but don't want to have doubts over a strength issue.

What if all you can find is a 32" bat?

I am sure all the females on this board appreciate your strength tips. Indeed, obtaining an orthopedic residency as a woman is an uphill climb, but I think it has more to do with protecting a boys club. That being said, there are plenty of orthopods (men) that I have encountered that are plenty big that I would not want within 100 feet of me if I needed surgery. Size can be important, but there are ways of getting around that.

good luck to all the females on this board, and don't be discouraged by the inane number of backhanded compliments that are floating about

Now, I'm a guy, but I'm not very strong and I'm pretty. Should I be concerned?

Women, the take-home msg from this thread is that your gender DOES matter. You can see that not from the content so much as the character of these posts. The million-dollar question is" to whom does it matter and in what ways?" It is hard to figure who is biased against you, who doesn't care one way or another, and which precious few will actually reach out to help you. There's no really good way of doing that (esp. since some attempts at appearing sensitive or welcoming are so awkward as to be insulting). If I were you, I would look to places with female faculty and residents (but esp faculty) as an indication of a decent ethic. Clearly, this is problematic b/c the numbers are so few, that many places have no women as a matter of sampling error, but it's a start.

The same advice can go to anyone who has traits that may be potential targets of discrimination--whether by race, religion, sexual preference, etc. And don't dismiss the notion of these other biases--we already accept that gender and even the region of the country you hail from can cause problems; there's no reason to think that after that it's all board scores and rec letters.

It is hard getting into ortho as a woman, but that's because getting into ortho is hard and being a woman is hard (bone jocks aren't the only people in the world for whom the ERA was written). But you can do it if you want. Best of luck--we ALL need it.

And, as a special treat, once you do match in your dream program, everyone will say that they took you BECAUSE you are a woman. See what you have to look fwd to? Sweet.

-Grizzle-

No matter how you look at it, gender does matter in orthopaedics and will for a long time. More so at some places than others. At my program, you are judged by the quality of your work and not what is or is not between your legs. We have a female resident who is brilliant and does a very nice job. On certain tasks in trauma, she struggles but that's not a big deal most of the time. During the day there is always help during those moments when you need brute force. But at night by yourself it's different. And certainly as a senior level resident I would think it may be embarassing to have to rely on the intern to give you a hand reducing that distal femur fx. But maybe that's just me.

I agree that technique is key and you can get around the strength issue most of the time by using your head. My own experience is that over the last 3 years as an ortho resident, I've found myself using every last bit of my might to pull, push, reduce, screw and hammer anything and everything when all else failed quite a few times. Maybe I'm dumb and can't figure out that magical touch. I sweat like a pig during some cases. But my attendings do too so I know it's not alone. If you're at a busy trauma center, then talk to me. Otherwise, you really don't know what I'm talking about.

To any females out there concerned about all this talk, the Orthopedic Chief of Staff at Wishard Hospital in Indianapolis is a female. It is a county hospital, and I would put its trauma numbers up against most with few exceptions. She has done two trauma fellowships, and is plenty capable physically and intellectually. Oh, and I would be shocked if she was over 5'4". It can be done and it is done.

Oh, and if some jerk-off patronizes someone in the middle of the night because they are not as strong (though some of that is by nothing but the grace of God), then remember that if not for the grace of God, you too could be an ass like him.