In a tough bind... (aways)

What is an R2?

2nd year orthopaedic resident

Some folks raised eyebrows when I told them that one of my aways was HSS, so there is something to that theory. To combat against that, I would make sure that my other away(s) diversified the picture (different region of the country, perceived lack of prestige, etc.). My other aways were at Emory and Rush and this lent credibility to the (true) position that I just wanted a big city. Also, I had a free place to stay in all 3 places, so that was convenient. Now, the other common theme is that each program is the best one in its respective city, but I didn't bring that up.

As far as harvard v. penn, I have heard (never been there) that aways at harvard are a waste of time b/c you just stand there and watch and people ignore you. Like I said, I've never been there so I don't know how true that is.

I did interview at Penn and liked the place a lot. The people were nice and the facilities were AWESOME. Also, philly is WAY better than boston in my opinon.

I would base your decision on which of the 2 you would rather be at instead of how other folks may perceive your choice. If somebody gives you a hard time, explain your choice in terms of personal factors (geography, family, schedule conflict, etc.).

-Grizzle-

If you rotate at a program like HSS, it definitely sends a message to other places you apply to. Don't fool yourself.

If you have the numbers and think you can match at a place like that, or of that caliber, then go for it. If you go to Harvard or Duke and tell them you rotated at HSS, it's no big deal. But if you go to a smaller community program and tell them that, they'll get a sense of where your interests lie and what kind of program you're looking for (not theirs).

If you're reaching and are not a stellar candidate, it may be a mistake. It does turn off other programs to a certain extent.

Grizzle,

I am a resident in the Harvard ortho program and can assure you that you do not "just stand there and watch and people ignore you" Our rotators are very active on all the services and get plenty of OR, clinic, ER and floor experience. We specifically gear the rotation so that you get a wide exposure to various services and attendings. As an example, our attendings hold a weekly lecture series only for the MSIII's and IV's on the various services. As most of our services are comprised of only a junior and senior resident, you as a sub-I will have plenty of direct contact with attendings and are expected to play an active role as a team member. What you have heard has never been a sentiment that I've heard from the rotators we have had thus far. I would not let this rumor pursuade you from coming and checking out our program.

Tipsy

I'm happy to hear all that about the Harvard program's involvement with students. I didn't mean to ruffle feathers or provide any misinformation--like I said, it was just something I've heard from a few different people (each of whom rotated a few years ago). I hope no one took it as gospel truth.

You should take as gospel truth, however, that Philly is better than Boston. This is not due solely to the Red Sox, though that is a big factor. It has something also to do with the accent and how early clubs close. Also, Massachussetts is hard to spell. Philly has cheesesteaks and Boston has beans. Beans. No contest.

So, forget all the whooey about the strength of a program and whether or not you actually learn anything. The most important thing is cheesesteak.

-Grizzle-

Hey Grizzle,

I'm from NY anyway so I could care less about the Sox, GO YANKS!!!

Tipsy

So how big a deal is this whole thing about not overshooting your candidacy by doing aways at "top" programs. I consider myself a competitive but not incredible candidate, but am doing my aways at Campbell Clinic and either Mayo or Ohio State. As with most things on this site, I just want to know if this is really such a big deal or has been overplayed by a few people with bad experiences. I guess I'm just discouraged because I selected Campbell and Mayo based on good reports from my advisor, curiosity, and thinking the cities might be ones to check out. But is this really a major point that one could send the wrong messages with such ambition?

The danger here is overthinking the "problem". Remember, aways are not just about getting into an ortho program, they are about finding a program that is well matched to your interests. It's hard not to focus on "getting in" at this point, but try to focus more on checking out programs that you are interested in. You can't forsee the future, and the ortho application process is not predictable or even logical at times. The only thing you can control at this point is getting the best expereince and information about programs that YOU are interested in.

Good Luck

BTW, I rotated at Campbell and it was a great experience. The program ranked just behind the program I matched at. Pluses, you get to work with a great deal of well known people, the residents are awesome, the program is pretty unique compared to others you will see, the away is very easy to schedule and they are very helpful in accomodating your needs. Minuses - you work with many people... and don't get much time with anyone in particular (something you might consider if you need LORs). That being said, I got a very nice letter from one of the well known attending I worked with at CC.

so i'm sure you've decided already, but the CHOP rotation might be one of the best ones out there for anyone else who cares to read. pretty much all penn med students going into ortho do it and for good reason. all of the attendings are amazing teachers, the facilities are great, the rotation is actually pretty laid back with non-ridiculous hours and very minimal call. there is a huge diversity in cases and if you are the only student for the month, you pick your cases. if there are 2 of you, there are always plenty of good cases around. the residents will advise you to try to operate with and go to office hours with Dormans as he is the chair. he is really nice to students.

penn residents like to teach and hang out and are really looking for good people who would be nice to work with to come to the program. philly is a very manageable and fun city and has great restaurants. sublets seem to be very easy to come by and the liveable part of the city is so small that it's super easy to get around. you could walk, bus or bike to CHOP from just about anywhere in center city/university city. if anyone has penn questions, don't hesitate to contact me.

i would love to hear more about the harvard aways, what to expect, who to work with, etc. i'll be at the brig in september. anyone?