William Beaumont Discussion thread

Well, Beaumont has a great program and their hospital is nearly without equal. Additionally, they have excellent research facilities in-house. The deal with their second year is that they supposedly have an extensive anatomy course that is guided by the PGY-2s which requires several hours per week of extra-curricular work. Upside: you get to become an anatomical master. Downside: you tack those hours onto your already-busy clinical duties. I was convinced by the upper-levels at their interview that life gets notably better PGY 3-4-5. And, they do have concierge service...

They may favor rotators but that's true everywhere.

Yes, second year is tough anywhere you go but there is definitely a difference among some programs as to how difficult they make it. Beaumont is an example of a program that falls on the more difficult end of the spectrum. As one person mentioned, their anatomy course is quite extensive and takes up a huge chunk of what little free time you may have. Add that to the fact that their residents are spread thin across a large patient census (again, thin being a relative term compared to other programs I have seen), making their second year tough to say the least.

Is your PGY-2 going to be easy anywhere in the country? Absolutely not, but there is variation in how difficult it will be. Although this shouldn't play a huge roll (at least in my opinion) as to how you make your rank list, it is definitely one variable to include in the equation and may influence some people's decision.

I think what the original poster was getting at is that while we all know that 2nd year is a bitch, clearly it seemed like a more prominent theme at that program than others that he/she has interviewed at. Given that impression, does anyone have any other experiences to share that may confirm or deny this impression? Clearly, there must be wide variation and many gradations of how bad the 2nd year sucks.

I had the same experience when I interviewed. I went to Cincinnati and multiple times their residents commented about how bad the 2 year was and then they chuckled and smiled at one another. Everyone's 2nd year sucks and maybe theirs is the same as all the rest. But I couldn't ignore the fact that my impression was that they seemed to enjoy or revel in how much of a beating the 2 year was. I did not notice this impression at any other program I interviewed at. This is not to say anything negative about Cincinnati, which is a solid program. But for whatever reason, those few residents, in that one interaction, on that day, gave me that impression.

I actually did not get that impression when I interviewed at the Beaumont program. I went up there not knowing anything about it, and came away so impressed that I ranked it highly in my "would love to be there" top tier. I thought their experience seemed to be very well-rounded and complete, with surgeons in every sub-specialty and usually multiple surgeons in each. Facilities were great. I didn't get that vibe from the residents at all. That being said, that was 4 years ago.

At the very least, we should be able to stick to the original question rather than arguing whether it is worthy of discussion or whether the opinions listed here should be lent much weight.

I would be more than willing to address the original question, being a current resident at said program.

We (the residents) made a concerted effort to be upfront and honest with our applicants in regards to our second year. Yes it's hard, but seeing as how the second year is harder than the other years at pretty much every program, I can't honestly say we are harder (that's what she said) or easier than any other program. I do know that as a second year, I wasn't here past 12 post call and I got 4 days off a month. Clinical duties were done by 5-6pm most nights, and I rarely came in earlier than 6am. Our PGY-2's take only 5 calls a month, though they are mostly Fri/Sun calls. There is a quite extensive anatomy program that involves a detailed dissection and weekly hour presentation for 10 months of the year. In addition, we have weekly case conference presentations by attendings/residents, at which the PGY-2s are expected to present as well. The reason we tell everyone that comes to interview that it is hard is not just for your benefit. Our hope is that pansy med students, recognizing they aren't interested in working hard, rank our program low and then won't match. Now if you don't mind one tough year, our program then offers a tiered call schedule and seniority perks that make the other years quite beneficial towards operative experience and education. If you're a resident who likes to work hard, not complain, operate PGY 1-5 years, drink beer, and aren't offended by continuous resident office flatulence, then you'll probably fit in.

In response to the second question: we do offer most (in rare instances we won't) of our rotators interviews. We interview around 70-80 people a year for 5 spots. As has been mentioned in numerous other posts, rotating can help and hurt. If you're a bad rotator, then you ruin your chance to match at that program. If you're a great rotator that the residents like, then your opportunity to match at that program is pretty signficant. There are only suble clues on interview days that alert residents and attendings to a potential applicants douche-baggery. Thus, it is often a safe bet to choose a rotator who worked hard for a month and is known to everyone over a potential douche bag. I would find it hard to believe that isn't the case at every single program in the country. With that said, if an interviewee comes and impresses the group, then they have just as good of a chance to be ranked to match.

Again, if you're worried about working hard as a second year, please do yourself and all ortho programs a favor and match into your radiology backup position.

Awesome! Two thumbs up!

No one said anything about blind conformity other than you. What I said was that there is no use arguing whether readers should lend weight to their opinions or not. I'm a grown man, I can decide on my own whether to believe what I read without you telling me. Myself and the resident from that program gave the original poster what they wanted, which were accounts of our experiences with this program. He/she can use that however they choose.

With regard to the comment about staying away if you don't want to work, I think it's unfair to pin that on him/her just for asking. If you get an impression that a program is malignant or somthing doesn't seem right, then you should ask. Sounds like he/she was impressed with the program and is trying to make sure that they aren't missing anything. I think the Beaumont program is outstanding and would have been very happy there.

I would be more than willing to address the original question, being a current resident at said program.

We (the residents) made a concerted effort to be upfront and honest with our applicants in regards to our second year. Yes it's hard, but seeing as how the second year is harder than the other years at pretty much every program, I can't honestly say we are harder (that's what she said) or easier than any other program. I do know that as a second year, I wasn't here past 12 post call and I got 4 days off a month. Clinical duties were done by 5-6pm most nights, and I rarely came in earlier than 6am. Our PGY-2's take only 5 calls a month, though they are mostly Fri/Sun calls. There is a quite extensive anatomy program that involves a detailed dissection and weekly hour presentation for 10 months of the year. In addition, we have weekly case conference presentations by attendings/residents, at which the PGY-2s are expected to present as well. The reason we tell everyone that comes to interview that it is hard is not just for your benefit. Our hope is that pansy med students, recognizing they aren't interested in working hard, rank our program low and then won't match. Now if you don't mind one tough year, our program then offers a tiered call schedule and seniority perks that make the other years quite beneficial towards operative experience and education. If you're a resident who likes to work hard, not complain, operate PGY 1-5 years, drink beer, and aren't offended by continuous resident office flatulence, then you'll probably fit in.

In response to the second question]


Everone knows that programs favor their rotators so it isn't worth talking about unless the program favors residencts to an exceptional degree. That is what I heard from the other applicants when I interviewed but they couldn't give me an estimate of what percentage of the residents were rotators. Is it 25% of each class or 75% or 100%. It is worth knowing or at least having an idea. When I asked a few residents at my interview I got a wish-washy answer that sounded like "yes we take rotators almost exclusively but we don't want to scare anyone off in case they don't rank us high enough to match." So, I wanted to hear what other applicants thought.

In regard to second year, why was it mentioned so much more at Beaumont than any other interview? Actually, one resident said it was tolerable while another said that it sucks (with emphasis) many times during the day. If one of the most biased critics of the program is repeatedly saying that a certain aspect of the program sucks it is worth a little investigation.

In regard to your sissy attempt at an insult, I'm not worried about working hard. Nobody going into ortho is worried about working hard. I am worried about going to program that puts on a nice smile for the two interview days but drives their residents into the ground the other 363 days of the year.

Thanks for your reply. Your post has more useful information in it than the rest of orthogate.

In an effort for full disclosure, here are some demographics. How this affects actual residency training, I don't know.

The amount of prior rotators who are now residents in the program:
PGY5: 1 of 4
PGY4: 3 of 4
PGY3: 3 of 4
PGY2: 2 of 4
PGY1: 2 of 5
We take 4 rotators a month from all US allopathic medical schools, and typically spots begin to fill in late March for the summer.

Residents come from the following states:
OH (3), NY, MI (, IL, IN (4), WA, OR, CA, WI

Married: 12 out of 21, 4 are engaged
Male: 19 of 21
Liberals: 2 of 21 (that will admit it)