TOP 5 ACADEMIC ORTHOPAEDIC SURGERY RESIDENCY PROGRAMS

I'm just quoting this because it's awesome.

Noted; thanks.

In brief.

No, you should not assume any "trickle down." Labs are expensive to run and the grants are associated with budgets, none of which would ever include "some stuff for the residents".

The labs at my institution do have opportunities for resident research, but time to do basic science without a dedicated research YEAR is hard to come by. Also, we are encouraged to find our own funding via OREF, NASS, etc.

This makes a lot of sense. However, for those of us new to all of this, may I ask, is it reasonable to think that institutions with larger NIH funding would offer a "trickle down" of greater magnitude to the residents? In other words, would the indirect costs coming from these large grants, which are typically re-distributed to the department chairs as discretionary funds, be of benefit in the training of residents through the purchase of newer equipment, the establishment and maintenance of training labs, etc.?

Just a thought. Input from those senior folks (or anyone) in the know is welcome.

A little unknown program- University of Toledo- those guys are well rounded and have a lot of hands on starting PGY2, and take a look at their scores! I am considering an away there.

My username inspiration was a play on words of Bo Diddley the blues/rock n' roll guitarist.....correct last name spelled DIDDLEY, not Diddly.

Just pulling your chain....didn't know that there was an original out there.

I have been curious about NIH trends for a while, so I finally compiled this list. Sorry, lots of data, and I cannot figure out how to show it in a better format here. If interested, it might be better to cut and paste into excel. But anyways, here are the past 5 years of NIH awards to 'medical schools' in the dept of ortho. The format is]

Quality, not quantity. Look at who's writing the landmark papers, not wasting research money doing crappy studies

WHAT A NAME COPIER!!!
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(Above)

This "debate" gets old to see and unfortunately confuses some of those just applying. This is solely RESEARCH DOLLARS that is accrued by the various departments and not a reflection of the EDUCATION that you receive. At that these monitary amounts are largely accrued through grants submitted by BASIC SCIENCE researchers (i.e. NIH, etc.) and the percentage of CLINICAL research dollars are usually a much smaller percentage of the total pot.

Your education is a product of the ratios of residents to attendings and the degree of meaningful mentorship that they provide, the gamut/diversity of case scenarios that you observe, and how much time that is afforded for reading aside from personal time, scut time, and call time. Seek this information out through your aways, on the interview trail, and through talking with the current residents. You will get the general impression of each of the programs by seeking this information out and can thus make an informed decision.

Remember, all the patient cares about after the surgery is whether their ailment is repaired. A name in iteself cannot accomplish that without any substance.[/b]

i thought this thread was interesting to read. We're about to start applying to programs so i thought it would be relevant to ask about good academic programs again.

Most places it seems will have you well prepared to practice orthopaedics, but for those who want to go into academics, is this list still accurate or have there been any recent changes or updates?

I have been curious about NIH trends for a while, so I finally compiled this list. Sorry, lots of data, and I cannot figure out how to show it in a better format here. If interested, it might be better to cut and paste into excel. But anyways, here are the past 5 years of NIH awards to 'medical schools' in the dept of ortho. The format is:

.................2007.....2006....2005.....2004.....2003.....TOTALS
SCHOOL....#...$.....#...$.....#...$.....#...$.....#...$.......#.....$


UNIVERSITY OF ROCHESTER 14 $5,143,403 12 $4,509,553 9 $3,957,638 10 $3,466,178 5 $2,101,967 50 $19,178,739
YALE UNIVERSITY 8 $2,709,885 9 $2,741,810 8 $2,935,804 10 $3,746,988 9 $3,324,152 44 $15,458,639
UNIVERSITY OF IOWA 9 $4,309,025 8 $3,885,245 5 $2,276,188 4 $2,163,389 6 $2,553,363 32 $15,187,210
CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY 14 $3,656,959 6 $1,633,221 6 $1,790,362 8 $2,439,547 16 $4,372,979 50 $13,893,068
WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY 13 $3,228,234 10 $2,880,845 8 $2,212,061 12 $2,733,378 11 $2,260,676 54 $13,315,194
THOMAS JEFFERSON UNIVERSITY 8 $2,564,611 10 $3,011,313 11 $3,074,121 6 $1,366,936 9 $1,889,548 44 $11,906,529
UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA 10 $2,944,612 10 $2,852,720 7 $1,950,762 6 $1,776,032 5 $904,728 38 $10,428,854
UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AT ANN ARBOR 7 $1,446,507 7 $1,450,871 8 $2,087,969 8 $1,811,310 4 $1,062,912 34 $7,859,569
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SAN FRANCISCO 7 $1,720,695 9 $1,638,764 5 $1,008,683 6 $1,430,868 6 $818,107 33 $6,617,117
UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON 5 $1,183,805 6 $1,371,827 6 $1,195,934 6 $1,502,730 6 $1,308,755 29 $6,563,051
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LOS ANGELES 5 $1,138,937 5 $1,276,727 5 $1,270,723 4 $1,208,754 4 $1,237,527 23 $6,132,668
UNIVERSITY OF VERMONT & ST AGRIC COLLEGE 5 $1,330,632 5 $1,496,861 4 $1,117,970 4 $1,029,418 5 $1,070,900 23 $6,045,781
UNIVERSITY OF PITTSBURGH AT PITTSBURGH 5 $1,332,515 2 $651,818 3 $777,731 5 $1,584,971 5 $1,636,348 20 $5,983,383
UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA TWIN CITIES 1 $187,760 5 $1,039,852 5 $1,273,185 8 $2,041,023 5 $1,379,716 24 $5,921,536
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SAN DIEGO 5 $1,325,917 6 $1,440,911 6 $1,546,755 3 $516,893 4 $732,376 24 $5,562,852
INDIANA UNIV-PURDUE UNIV AT INDIANAPOLIS 4 $1,081,208 2 $728,515 4 $1,358,348 3 $744,857 6 $1,477,974 19 $5,390,902
UPSTATE MEDICAL UNIVERSITY 2 $587,910 3 $693,155 4 $658,382 6 $1,415,848 6 $1,583,579 21 $4,938,874
UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA CHARLOTTESVILLE 7 $1,248,651 8 $1,154,445 5 $880,188 2 $775,174 2 $829,224 24 $4,887,682
MOUNT SINAI SCHOOL OF MEDICINE OF NYU 3 $927,762 4 $1,325,815 3 $1,059,438 3 $880,241 2 $457,458 15 $4,650,714
DARTMOUTH COLLEGE 3 $2,503,708 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 1 $1,350,000 4 $3,853,708
PENNSYLVANIA STATE UNIV HERSHEY MED CTR 1 $291,616 3 $489,592 4 $749,917 4 $776,216 5 $955,639 17 $3,262,980
JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY 1 $331,372 2 $725,690 3 $818,885 3 $859,873 2 $514,403 11 $3,250,223
UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA 4 $550,039 5 $944,686 3 $815,192 2 $623,434 1 $240,231 15 $3,173,582
UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI KANSAS CITY 3 $1,900,753 2 $794,341 1 $372,965 0 $0 0 $0 6 $3,068,059
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA DAVIS 3 $636,733 2 $424,156 3 $733,237 3 $696,176 2 $462,578 13 $2,952,880
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND BALTIMORE 3 $745,191 3 $767,446 2 $540,540 1 $279,180 1 $279,180 10 $2,611,537
UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA 4 $906,011 5 $1,086,822 1 $243,750 0 $0 2 $357,094 12 $2,593,677
UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI SCHOOL OF MEDICINE 1 $294,483 2 $536,283 2 $549,188 3 $755,415 1 $306,134 9 $2,441,503
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA IRVINE 2 $416,410 3 $450,810 1 $306,564 3 $744,558 3 $432,512 12 $2,350,854
UNIVERSITY OF TENNESSEE HEALTH SCI CTR 1 $271,797 1 $279,914 1 $286,650 1 $274,820 1 $437,800 5 $1,550,981
UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS MEDICAL BR GALVESTON 2 $348,664 2 $355,249 2 $360,714 0 $0 0 $0 6 $1,064,627
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA SCH OF MED 0 $0 0 $0 2 $144,558 4 $388,510 4 $395,778 10 $928,846
HENRY FORD HEALTH SYSTEM 1 $300,350 2 $555,128 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 3 $855,478
UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA COL OF MEDICINE 0 $0 0 $0 1 $228,172 1 $294,812 1 $331,711 3 $854,695
STATE UNIVERSITY NEW YORK STONY BROOK 1 $166,826 1 $205,706 0 $0 1 $75,250 3 $225,750 6 $673,532
UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT SCH OF MED/DNT 1 $312,236 1 $349,000 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 2 $661,236
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE 3 $377,347 1 $223,080 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 4 $600,427
VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY 0 $0 2 $535,533 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 2 $535,533
LOYOLA UNIV CHICAGO STRITCH SCH OF MED 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 1 $259,000 1 $259,000 2 $518,000
EMORY UNIVERSITY 1 $248,205 1 $255,618 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 2 $503,823
OREGON HEALTH & SCIENCE UNIVERSITY 1 $198,660 0 $0 1 $295,288 0 $0 0 $0 2 $493,948
UNIV OF MASSACHUSETTS MED SCH WORCESTER 1 $488,364 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 1 $488,364
UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN MAINE 1 $142,037 1 $251,669 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 2 $393,706
UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO ALBUQUERQUE 1 $162,211 1 $164,932 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 2 $327,143
UNIVERSITY OF TOLEDO HEALTH SCI CAMPUS 1 $302,072 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 1 $302,072
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY HEALTH SCIENCES 1 $289,800 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 1 $289,800
UNIV OF MED/DENT OF NJ-NJ MEDICAL SCHOOL 1 $287,993 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 1 $287,993
BOSTON UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 1 $80,750 1 $80,750 2 $161,500
UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO DENVER/HSC AURORA 0 $0 1 $75,191 1 $77,000 0 $0 0 $0 2 $152,191
MEDICAL COLLEGE OF WISCONSIN 1 $68,540 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 1 $75,000 2 $143,540
WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY 1 $75,250 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 1 $75,250
UNIVERSITY OF LOUISVILLE SCH OF MEDICINE 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 1 $73,084 1 $73,084
HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 0 $0 1 $70,450 1 $70,450


I had to do the last couple of years by hand (NIH won't rank medical schools anymore, for whatever reason), so there might be some errors, but hopefully not too many

Again, this list is just for the total NIH awards for medical school ortho depts. HSS, for example, got something like 10 mil just last year, but these institutes are not on the list.

Anyways, I hope that this might be interesting to some of us interested in research and/or academic ortho.

any updates on this? lets not have this become an argument again...but any major changes in programs across the country? Major attending losses?

Here is a vote for Wash U. Top notch attendings. The key, however, is to find a program that matches your learning style. Goal of residency is to develop a strong foundation so you can continue to learn once you finish. As a resident you do not realize how much you will learn during your first year or two out of training.

Im at temple and one of our newest attendings did the hand center fellowship at Jeff...per her its one of the strongest hand programs in the country. She said the residents and the fellows get to work with Lee Osterman, Randall Culp, Taras, Zelouf, and some other big names in hand who operate quite a bit.

Here is my take: I only interviewed at academic residency programs, so I'm not familiar w/ the strength of community programs, sorry.

UCSF, Harvard Wash U, U of Wash, UPitt,

UCSF: probably one of the strongest academic operative program, my guess is that it's on par w/ most community program in terms of surgical experience. I would have love it here if matched.
Harvard: I would say Harvard is a blend of UCSF and HSS in terms of operative experience. I really liked this program and residents were really cool. Most attendings were really receptive to residents.
UPitt: both research and operative powerhouse. location is questionable, but awesome training overall and produces a lot of leaders.
Both "Wash" programs: similar to Pitt. No real drawback. Well-balanced program w/ aggressive program directors intent on making their program the best in the nation.

Comment on HSS (since people will question why I didn't put HSS on top 5): probably the best hospital, but definitely not the best residency program. It's largely an observational residency (maybe except for the joint service) despite high volume.
Antsy attendings + VIP pts = sleeping residents holding the retractor.
While lower in volume, you probably get better operative experience at Columbia or NYU-HJD.

ahhh always with the familiar pissing contest.

i'm just happy to be training in a specialty i love.
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The big academic places, being tertiary referral centers, attract complex cases. I don't know how many times I've heard someone say that a big name doesn't equate with good surgeon. while this may be true in certain cases, by and large, surgeons who work at these centers do harder cases. Experience with complex cases makes you a better surgeon. These are cases that the average orthopod in the community doesn't want to touch.

back to the point of this thread...
now that all the people NOT in the academic programs are done bi**ching (hopefully). I'm a fourth year at Columbia (kind of a fifth year - i took a year off to do research), and I rotated at HJD, Jefferson and Rush. Ive talked to a bunch of ortho residents/attendings over the last 6 months and it seems like the general consensus is that the strongest academic programs (also very strong clinically, but have an EXTREMELY strong academic reputation and generally match VERY WELL FOR FELLOWSHIPS) are:

HSS, Mayo, Jefferson, and Wash U.

I also just wanted to make one point. Based on my experience i think one thing is obvious. Being academic does not make you a "bookworm. and not know stuff clinically." EVERY SINGLE REALLY ACADEMIC ATTENDING I WORKED WITH had a huge patient base operated like crazy because they had such a good reputation. Most of them were phenomenal surgeons, but i cant deny that some were average. But one thing is clear to me. The more academic places tend to have a large volume. For example, I rotated at jefferson and spent two weeks on the spine service. Alex Vaccaro often times was operating in 4 different ORs on any given day (being the primary surgeon in two of them) and doing up to 8-10 BIG CASES. AND THATS ONE SPINE SURGEON. I mean, this guy is out of control. This flows onto the residents too -- i mean the residents in his two primary rooms did the whole exposure whether it be cervical/lumbar and even started the decompression. The residents did the pedicle screws on their side, while the Attending did the pedicle screws on their side. It was fu**ing awesome.

SO AGAIN, VOLUME/ACADEMICS ARE BOTH THINGS THAT I THINK ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT WHEN SELECTING A STRONG PROGRAM.

Before I set off 20 more responses below, let me clarify: I certainly didn't mean to imply that academic programs (even "top" ones) are full of eggheads. I'm quite confident that the majority of residents at academic institutions are intelligent as well as competent in the OR and graduate to become very competent surgeons. Those guys (and gals), however, are probably not the ones spending time on message boards arguing about the meaningless rank order of programs. It only takes one or two eggheads to create a perception.

Ortho 2003:

What is the point of going to great lengths to match at an "elite top 5 academic program" if you cannot brag about being at an "elite top 5 academice program" once you get there? Although amusing to sit back and watch the East Coast arrogant academic elite sit around and rank themselves (and a bit annoying at times), you can take comfort in the fact that while they are busy looking up NIH funding data, you are off learning to operate to become a damn fine orthopod. I went to a community program to, and while all the ego stroking by some of those in academic orthopedics can get old, it is only expected when you look at some of the personalities that are drawn to those types of programs. All programs train their share of eggheads, but eggheads are MORE LIKELY to pursue elite academic programs because of their very nature. I just feel sorry for the majority of normal guys that have to go through five years of training at some of those top programs who land some of those people every year. Simply take comfort in the fact that based on your case volume, you will be more prepared to take on your first year in practice than 90% of those coming out and let the eggheads sit back and rank each other.