This may be an un-answerable question...

Here's my opinion after not matching the first time around despite being a great candidate: Apply to more programs than you think you should. Interview offers can be a strange beast, and you never know what programs are going to give you an offer or how many offers you're going to get. Better to get 30 offers and turn down 15 than to feel like you didn't get the chance to interview at enough places.

Just ask yourself this question: Would I rather do ortho at a program that I'm not thrilled about or do general surgery, anesthesia, etc.

my wife and I basically looked at a full map of the US on google maps and went through each state, trying to decide which ones we absolutely would be miserable living in. Once that as straight, then I decided to apply to all the programs in the remaining states.

I don't think anyone, even the dude with the 270 step 1, can be picky. In this month's issue of the AAMC's Careers in Medicine, they highlighted that the top 4 competitive specialities in this last match was derm, ENT, neurosurg, and ortho. We all know what a crazy hard field this is, so I think once you pick out the programs you would hate being at (at face value), then apply everywhere else. Its better to have to call programs and turn down their offers than be sweating bullets for more interviews.

I agree with the above. But in the interest of putting down a number for the OP here are my thoughts.

1. Obviously the number of programs is going to depend on your application. Weak application? Apply to more programs. Stronger application maybe you can sneak by with applying to less.

2. I applied to 24 programs. This is not nearly enough programs to apply to for most people. I did this because of had serious geographic constraints that prevented me from apply to more. I was very fortunate to get a lot of invites, but I was worried about it for a while.

3. Everyone I met on the trail had applied to at least 30 programs. My student dean and ortho chairman both recommended that I apply to 30+ programs.

4. If I had the freedom to apply anywhere, I would have applied to about 35 programs. I personally think that this would have been a good number for me that I would have felt comfortable with.

5. Sadly, there is no magic number that will guarantee you will match. I think this is why people say apply as to as many as you can. Remember its not too expensive to apply to programs and you can always cancel extra interviews if you need.

I had a pretty perfect application and still applied to 50 just to be safe. It's better to cast the net wide and see what comes back, giving yourself an opportunity to cherry pick your interviews, instead of wishing you had spent the extra $300 when you have only a handful of interviews.

ya I completely understand what you all are saying. I'm not against to applying to 30-35 programs. But you hear about some people applying to around 50 programs and I'm just wondering if there is some rationale people are using for strength of application and the number of places you should apply or if people are just pulling numbers out of thin air. It seems like the consensus is just to apply to as many as you can stomach both financially and geographically.

Basically I think the underlying problem is just that people have no idea how to gauge how good of an applicant they are until its too late, which is a scary idea to think about when you're just starting apply.

I agree with applying to as many as you can stomach. Personally, I think it would be reasonable for a top applicant to apply to 30-40 programs, only if they aren't all among the most competitive places in the country. An average or poor applicant should plan to apply to around 50 or more places, depending on preferences and how bad your application may be.

I will create a rule-of-thumb here for fun. Assuming your overall application is similar to your Step 1 score, subtract your step score from 295, and that is the number of places you should apply to. (Step 1 = 240, 55 applications) You may adjust up or down if the rest of your application is better or worse than your step. I would not go below 30 programs.


I had an average application. Step 1 in mid 230's, some research, good 3rd year grades and letters. I applied to 45 programs in the Southeast and got 9 invites. I would have felt a lot better if I had applied to 60 and gotten 12-14 invites. I still matched, but each year is getting more competitive.

Apply to every program ou wouldnt absolutely hate being at. If you think you would rather not match than be at a certain program or in a certain place then mark it off. If programs dont meet one of those two then apply to it. Most likely it will be overkill. But you would hate to not match and wish you had applied to more. I applied to 38 got 10 interviews and matched. But it was a nerve wracking process and there were programs I didnt apply to that i should have. I see no reason not to apply to 50+ programs.

When choosing whether to apply to a program, you need to ask yourself, would you rather go to this program or not match. If the answer is go to the program, then apply to it. if you are limited to only 20 programs, I would have a backup plan unless you have a stellar application.

Exactly!

Excellent. This isn't actually a bad scheme... except I'd maybe do 290 minus Step 1.

I spent a thousand bucks on applications and quite another bit on interviews. And you know what? I ended up matching at my first choice which happened to be the first place I interviewed so I probably could've just applied to the first 3 on my list and then saved a bunch of money on applications/interviews. Unfortunately, no one has that kind of foresight. Also, it's kind of fun to go on interviews, and it really is dramatic how different programs can be. I'm very lucky to land where I did and simply can't imagine how the other 99% live.

Apply broadly. Take as many interviews as your schedule will allow. Spend money to do so because it's simply a great investment.

I really kinda like the 295- Step 1 score formula too. That should be ur minimum. I will be applying to about 10 additional programs than what the formula suggests.

lol..

Having not matched and applied to like, 60 some-odd programs the first time.. neah..

STep 1 score is not the be all end all.

Once you have above 240, you're competitive. No matter where you apply.

Now you need to look at where you goto school.. is it a good name school? yes no?

did you do well in your clinicals? (honors med/surg?)

The reason why I stress the school is as follows:

I feel that folks who are 'great candidates' and goto shitty schools (no school is shitty, but let's just say.. not so heard of school) are what I call 'inbetweeners'.

I was one of those. I had the scores, etc. that got me interviews at the big places, but the little places didn't think I would go there.. why? because I was 'too competitive'.

But then, when push came to shove at the big programs, depsite having great scores, the inbetweener will always be ranked lower than the kid with the good pedigree.

Consider the following:
step 1: 260, all honors, school: SUNY Stonybrook
step 1: 240, all honors, school: Yale.

Both 'guys' are great personalities..

So, who would you rank above the other? Does 20 points on step 1 out weigh a long track record of ivy league'ness?

I think we all know the answer to that.

You have to choose based on all of the factors.. and of course, also who is going to go to bat for you, which is probably the most important.

I matched this year on my first time around. I did the couples match with my fiance who is going into pediatrics. I had a 234 on step 1 mostly honors in 3rd and 4th year and very strong letters (2 said the residents are heavily recruiting this guy). I took step 2 in feb and got a 236, so it wasn't available to programs when they did their ranks.

I applied to 88 programs and got 19 interviews. I could only attend 12 due to conflicts, and only went on 10 because I didn't want to skip the social events on the night before. Attending the night before event is tricky. At some places I really don't think that it matters, but at most I feel it gives you a chance to stand out as a normal person. I ended up matching at a program that puts some weight into the social event prior to the interview as well as the get-together after the interview. I even cancelled an interview so I could attend the social event prior to interivew day. I am glad I did because I matched at my top choice.

I guess my point is this: Apply to as many programs as you can afford. I had 19 interviews and could only make 12. There aren't that many interview days for ortho. There are only 6 or 7 weekends that most ortho programs interview on and I swear 25% are on the second weekend of january. I had 7 interview offers on Jan 8th and 9th. I only went on one that weekend and ended up matching there, but the chances are not in your favor.

Apply to as many as possible!!

First, you chances of getting into Ortho depend on:
1. Your Step I score (less than 235 add 10 programs)
2. Your grades (clinical more than the first two years), (If you did not honor most or all of your clinicals add 5-10 programs)
3. Research (no research add 10 programs, some research add 5, tons of research add none)
4. LOR (strong add none, unsure add 5)
5. Who is pulling for you from your home programs and programs you rotated at (Strong pull add none, weak add 5)
6. Your Sub-I (Strong, plus a letter add none. Any thing else add 5)
7. How many programs you apply to.

It is obvious, but the weaker candidate you are in each category, you should add programs.

What can you do to improve your chances now that the application period is coming up.

1. If you did not make your Step one goal, take Step 2 early and make sure the programs have your score (assuming you will rock it)

2. Make honors on you clinicals and your Sub-I. You have to rock your sub-I. Volunteer for call, show up early and leave late. Know the exposure for every case. Go out (but do not get sloppy drunk) with the residents.

3. Start as many research projects as you can (at least they will be in progress and you can discuss them at interviews)

4. Ask for more letters than you need. You will know which ones to use even if you do not make them open.

5. Make a meeting with your program chairman and ask her/him for help. If you get to know them now you can ask them to call programs for you after you interview and this will help.

If you take all the above into account, you should apply to between 10 and 50 programs.

Remember that you need to make a life decision and decide if you can be happy anywhere for 5 years. If you can you should apply to more programs.

If not, have a back up plan and only apply where you will be happy.

Good Luck.

ors,

This is great. Thanks.

lol..

Having not matched and applied to like, 60 some-odd programs the first time.. neah..

STep 1 score is not the be all end all.

Once you have above 240, you're competitive. No matter where you apply.

Now you need to look at where you goto school.. is it a good name school? yes no?

did you do well in your clinicals? (honors med/surg?)

The reason why I stress the school is as follows]


Step one score is pretty far ahead of med school rep in this JBJS study on resident selection criteria.

http://www.ejbjs.org/cgi/reprint/84/11/2090

Anyway I can't imagine there are too many scenarios are so identical that the tie breaker comes down to medical school. I think someone is overthinking their recent match setback.

that article that agent13 posted had a nice summary table with a rank of the aspects that PDs use to select residents; its posted below. I think this is pretty valid b/c 70% of the PDs actually took this survey as compared to other studies which the ortho participation was pretty low.



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It's not surprising what things score more than med school reputation (aways, grades, boards, AOA, interview stuff), but it is interesting what things med school reputation does out score (MSPE, PS, research, pubs, failed to match, phones calls, thank yous).

All that extra fluff stuff we all spend so much time worrying about apparently is not as important as the decision of where to go to med school.

Or more simply summarized by:

1) get smart on Step I
2) apply broadly
3) have friends within the department
4) attempt to avoid "DB-ness". Sounds stupid, but in general you should probably refrain from giving your position on any given agenda whilst on an interview... whether on how to manage a fx (remember you're relatively-ignorant) or on SOB'ama's bill passage. As a student, you're only valued by your ability to make work easier and permit more free OR time, and NOT how to make OR/ER procedures easier.

BONUS POINTS: take call. Volunteer if you must. Stand sleepy holding retractors at 2am. The only thing residents want is other residents they trust to be able to work.

Its surprising to me that Personal Appearnce at Interview is so high seeing as how everyone says that all the applicants look the same. Also its interesting that research is so low on the list; seems like I shouldn't be killing my self to get on a bunch of projects.

Also I think # 22 is BS. I know enough less than steller folks that matched because daddy used to be a resident there or daddy knows the PD.