females in ortho

Just to respond to an earlier posting about small orthopaedists having to "bulk up," it's a little ridiculous. I have seen a female in orthopaedics during a very heavy trauma rotation. She was very slight in physical stature (<100 lbs). However, she was able to use her abilities to compensate for her size and was often more effective than males more than twice her size. The use of pulleys and weights is the proper setting and at the right angles can more than overcome even the smallest of physical sizes. The most important thing is to be able to think big, not be big. You may get some ignorant comments from people along the way (many of which should know much better), but definitely don't let anyone try to convince you that a woman's physique makes her less capable of being a great orthopaedic surgeon.

Forgot to mention
Save the psychoanalysis for your psychosomatic patients.

If discrimination upsets people to such a degree, I'll leave it alone and let some other resident/appplicant bring up the ortho community bullshit as it continues to occur.

Later
JP

These approx 5-7 programs who directly said they have preference for males are mostly university affiliates or community programs.

Look around you and figure it out for yourself. They ain't hard to find. Some may have women, but they they're full on their agenda.

Yes there is in fact an issue to deal with- that discrimination in many forms (not just gender) is rampant in the ortho community. Gender is just one example. Just look around and see the clones in your own program.

joepub, I'm not sure what your agenda is here, but it's pretty obvious that you have some issues to deal with. Maybe your top choices in the match went to women and you are bitter. Maybe there is a woman at your program that you don't like. Maybe you're an applicant who is trying to decrease competition with scare tactics. Whatever your problem is, I say get over it and stop spouting all this BS on this board.

You can not possibly speak for each and every program in the country. And to think that you would refute what an actual PROGRAM DIRECTOR wrote is laughable. I'm sure Dr. Levine knows a tab bit more about the selection process countrywide than you would. And I'm sure he knows a hell of a lot more about Program Directors and their intentions than you.

I'll speak from experience at my school. We had two very well qualified female applicants, and they each had way more interviews that I did. They were strong applicants to begin with, and I know at least one of them was highly recruited by multiple programs. She ended up at her No. 1 choice, but easily could have matched at several other programs. Also, one of my co-residents this coming year will be female.

I don't think there is any conspiracy against women in ortho, at least not from my experience in the match this year. And to be quite honest, I think the women I met on the interview trail are competitive not because of their gender, but because they are extremely qualified. There are some programs who will take women to balance gender, but I would bet most programs rank women highly because they have great scores and are hard workers. The same reasons they would rank a competitive male highly.

Each time you post you spout this rhetoric about how women are at a disadvantage. Then you end your posts with some quasi-supportive line about how you hope it works out for them. I mean, dude, we're all finished with our psych rotations already. We can see right through you.

If you are honest and want to help out the women, then name the "at least 1/2 dozen programs" that have stated their disdain for women. And then let us hash it out on the board, have people write in to either support or deny the allegations.

But I will bet you won't write in with those programs, because my bet is that you are making it all up.

I believe the latter post is reassuring for applicants to programs with stronger ethical beliefs regarding discrimination, particularly for those women who are considered outstanding applicants.

This does not hold for many other programs, however. And for those women who may be considered average/marginal applicants, there is less likelyhood of hearing someone hitting the jackpot as you may hear with some of the male applicants.

at least a 1/2 dozen programs come off the top of my head who STATED that prefer to have a male in their program, either due to bad experiences with women or they "have enough women in the program". I will not name these programs on this website, and am fairly certain there are more.


Good luck, and be careful of which programs to apply or spend your 4 weeks doing an AI. You may want to discuss with the residency coordinator about their opinions on taking a female:

If I were a female looking for an AI, ask a male to call the program and say "hey, are you trying to recruit women into your next year's class" and see what kind of (hopefully) honest responses you get.

double entry of next post

Delete

Well, I do have to say that this thread is interesting. As a female thinking about going into ortho, it's confusing because of all the mixed signals from all the people. I've had people tell me that no matter what I size, I should do what I love but then I've had people look at me and tell me realistically I would need to "bulk up." Most of the time I don't let people tell me what I can and cannot do but at the same time I don't want my career to be a "struggle" - although I don't mind the work/struggle while I'm a resident - I can handle that for 5 years. If any "petite" (or other of course) women who are in the field have any thoughts on their experiences, please send them my way! I would love to know what residents and attendings are thinking now...

To any females out there concerned about all this talk, the Orthopedic Chief of Staff at Wishard Hospital in Indianapolis is a female. It is a county hospital, and I would put its trauma numbers up against most with few exceptions. She has done two trauma fellowships, and is plenty capable physically and intellectually. Oh, and I would be shocked if she was over 5'4". It can be done and it is done.

Oh, and if some jerk-off patronizes someone in the middle of the night because they are not as strong (though some of that is by nothing but the grace of God), then remember that if not for the grace of God, you too could be an ass like him.

No matter how you look at it, gender does matter in orthopaedics and will for a long time. More so at some places than others. At my program, you are judged by the quality of your work and not what is or is not between your legs. We have a female resident who is brilliant and does a very nice job. On certain tasks in trauma, she struggles but that's not a big deal most of the time. During the day there is always help during those moments when you need brute force. But at night by yourself it's different. And certainly as a senior level resident I would think it may be embarassing to have to rely on the intern to give you a hand reducing that distal femur fx. But maybe that's just me.

I agree that technique is key and you can get around the strength issue most of the time by using your head. My own experience is that over the last 3 years as an ortho resident, I've found myself using every last bit of my might to pull, push, reduce, screw and hammer anything and everything when all else failed quite a few times. Maybe I'm dumb and can't figure out that magical touch. I sweat like a pig during some cases. But my attendings do too so I know it's not alone. If you're at a busy trauma center, then talk to me. Otherwise, you really don't know what I'm talking about.

Now, I'm a guy, but I'm not very strong and I'm pretty. Should I be concerned?

Women, the take-home msg from this thread is that your gender DOES matter. You can see that not from the content so much as the character of these posts. The million-dollar question is" to whom does it matter and in what ways?" It is hard to figure who is biased against you, who doesn't care one way or another, and which precious few will actually reach out to help you. There's no really good way of doing that (esp. since some attempts at appearing sensitive or welcoming are so awkward as to be insulting). If I were you, I would look to places with female faculty and residents (but esp faculty) as an indication of a decent ethic. Clearly, this is problematic b/c the numbers are so few, that many places have no women as a matter of sampling error, but it's a start.

The same advice can go to anyone who has traits that may be potential targets of discrimination--whether by race, religion, sexual preference, etc. And don't dismiss the notion of these other biases--we already accept that gender and even the region of the country you hail from can cause problems; there's no reason to think that after that it's all board scores and rec letters.

It is hard getting into ortho as a woman, but that's because getting into ortho is hard and being a woman is hard (bone jocks aren't the only people in the world for whom the ERA was written). But you can do it if you want. Best of luck--we ALL need it.

And, as a special treat, once you do match in your dream program, everyone will say that they took you BECAUSE you are a woman. See what you have to look fwd to? Sweet.

-Grizzle-

What if all you can find is a 32" bat?

I am sure all the females on this board appreciate your strength tips. Indeed, obtaining an orthopedic residency as a woman is an uphill climb, but I think it has more to do with protecting a boys club. That being said, there are plenty of orthopods (men) that I have encountered that are plenty big that I would not want within 100 feet of me if I needed surgery. Size can be important, but there are ways of getting around that.

good luck to all the females on this board, and don't be discouraged by the inane number of backhanded compliments that are floating about

Get a grip Ortho25, it's none of your business.

Regarding the former post,
I agree women can be strong enough and should be strong enough to conduct the majority of procedures in ortho. Crap, reaming a tibia shouldn't be an issue. If she wanted to go into Hand or something, there are 2 ways to do it- plastics, GS, and Ortho- why the hell pick Ortho if one lacks the confidence and strength for work that is occasionally physically demanding.

They say hit the gym. If women who are less strengthy are not too active, at least take part in leisure activities that require some power. Dump that B-rated movie you rented and hit the driving range, batting cages, or bowling. Seriously, even this can help. Use the driver, at least a 33" bat, or at least a 13lb ball can strenghen hands, arms, forearms, shoulders, and axial musculature.

Get into sports if you hate the gym- rowing/crew, boxing, martial arts, basketball, tennis, etc. Jogging around your block and hitting the yoga and tai chi courses ain't gonna help much.

If you made this committment to be an orthopod and your not particularly strong, at least make some effort to improve. Seriously, I would gladly see an female orthopod for any injury I have, but don't want to have doubts over a strength issue.

perhaps it would be advisable to just find out where "joepub" is planning on doing his residency, and just avoid that program.

Physical strength is important in orthopaedic trauma. There are many areas in which women are not at a physical disadvantage including hand surgery, sports, spine, foot and ankle, etc. But I have witnessed instances in which women have not been able to successfully reduce a fracture or dislocation because of lack of strength. Yes technique is important. And yes, there are instances in which weaker males also struggle with certain procedures. But let's be honest...physical strength is an advantage in orthopaedic trauma. To state otherwise is ludicrous and turning a blind eye to a problem that is real. I have seen one of the women in my program struggle with a simple task like reaming out a tibia. As males we don't think about this but it actaully takes some strength and stamina to ream that thing 5 or 6 times. Just the other day the same woman was trying to remove a screw with the head stripped from the proximal tibia and couldn't. A male resident had to scrub to remove it...no techniqe here, just brute force needed. There are other examples I have witnessed. Reducing that tough shoulder or hip dislocation, reducing those tough subtroch fractures takes strength. I have witnessed females struggle with these tasks to a much greater extent than males. I have heard chiefs complain about having to come in to the ER to help reduce a pediatric both bone forearm when a female resident was on call. I don't know. To be honest I sometimes come out of that room sweating like a pig after a tough pediatric reduction. Sometimes I wonder how women can do that because I'm giving it everything I have in there and sometimes it's really difficult. No I'm no weakling, am in decent shape and wrestled for 15 years competitively so I'm above average in terms of strength compared with most males. And I struggle to get it done at times. More power to you women who can go through an ortho residency, especially one that gets lots of trauma and reductions. Sometimes I don't know how you do it.

Sitting around on call with nothing to do. . . .

First off, I don't entirely agree with joepube. Women are still doing fine in Ortho. Strong applicants are strong applicants. If you're smart about picking aways and interviews, strong applicants will match. Every female applicant from Case Western Reserve University in the past 5 years has matched in ortho. There has been 5 total. They matched at the following places:

2005 - University of Chicago and George Washington
2004 - University of Pittsburgh
2003 - Ohio State University (matched and then declined the position.
Now doing anesthesia)
2002 - No female applicants
2001 - Case Western Reserve University

They've all been "petite" girls, but strong applicants from a strong medical school. Arguably, all very strong programs. In the same time there have been roughly 7 males to initially go unmatched. Again, strong applicants.

In short. Don't let anyone influence your choice to do the greatest specialty there is. Just be smart about your aways and where you apply.

Just my 2 cents.

By the way, I'm 6'3, 250lbs and can bench press over 350 lbs and even I couldn't relocate a hip. . . . . .once. We took it to the OR. Size isn't everything. Work smarter, not harder.

I am currently a resident in a program that has 4/16 women (if you include our intern class it's 4/20). We just matched 2 more women into our upcoming class, both outstanding candidates (as were the males who matched). So, there are programs out there that are not concerned about just filling a quota, and you should not be detered by that. Of the 4 of us, no one has ever taken time off for personal issues such as pregnancy, or "other trivial things" (not sure what that would be?) but I guess it could happen. I for one would be annoyed if my lifestyle was affected by someone elses personal decision. But the funny thing is, that in my time during residency, the only person to take time off for a baby was a guy! Maybe my program is unique, but we all get along great (girls and guys) and most of us are friends outside of work, including with other years.
You shouldn't worry too much about size either. I've seen plenty of smaller guys in Ortho. I'm an average sized girl, and for the most part have had no problems with strength issues. Twice I have been unable to reduce a hip...once, my male chief resident couldn't get it either but my attending did, and the other time my male attending couldn't get it either. I've done more than my share of joints (probably a couple of hundred), without any problems. Good luck, and defintely don't let any posts here dissuade you from your application.

For Ortho25 response,

It is true that there are a handful of programs that actively seek to recruit women- I heard of 2 programs in particular, and they are both likely the same programs everyone else heard about that was recruiting "a" woman. This is out of some 160 programs.

Others are not necessarily looking for a female, they interview one because she is a highly qualified candidate or they were very impressed on away rotations. Many (and I mean that) would prefer not to have anymore females.

It's probably not be because they dislike having females in the program, the problem is that they have "enough of them in the program" in their minds.

Yes there are women who match, of course, but don't think women are on equal grounds. I've seen more highly qualified females go unmatched this year than men, it was not this way in the last 5 years or so.

Go ahead and give it a shot anyways, there are always back-up plans to do.

The JBJS article is outdated. As said before, it used to be that women faired somewhat better. This is not so today. If you want accurate results, check with the number of females applied to ortho vs number matched for 2005.

Bottom line, women are at a standstill. They need to wait for other Ortho females to graduate so program numbers are not excessive.

If you think this is cock and bologne, go talk to the PD's yourself about why they put a cut on the # of female sin programs, I didn't choose this. It's just silly that you're misleading women into thinking Ortho is an easy or equal match for them compared to males in todays applications.

If you want a surgical field with more active recruitment of females, try Urology now.



Many of you need to get with the times. The days of women having it easy or equal in Ortho over the last few years are over- get it?

Programs need to get with the times, more women are applying, more women are going into medicine. Obviously many programs need to get over their inadequacies, female shyness, and function like everyone else in this world.

To all females interested in ortho:

there is a study in JBJS a couple of years back compaired rank level of a "cloaked croup" of ortho applications (ie all females names etc were changed to theie male counterparts), to the real thing where men are men and women are women. Take home is that there was no diff, actually the female counterpart ranked higher (but not stat sig. higher).....the moral is dont worry, your gender does not matter ---it may even help!