Top Orthopaedic Residency Programs

"i'm the best there is, plain and simple. i wake up every morning and piss excellence."

With all due respect, I disagree with orthogater1. I would humbly suggest checking out his previous post on orthogater1's rank list to see what he considers the top program in the nation. Maybe other than UVA, I've never even heard of most of them. Seems like another one of those bitter-revenge post to me.

So far, I've defended two programs]

Wow, talk about a wonderful attitude, I hope that someone that operates on me has that attitude....so he ranked 13 programs out of what, 160 some total ortho program which is just under 10%....so are you planning on ignoring 10% of the ortho community or your future colleagues....grow up dude, sorry you think you sh!t doesn't stink, but it does...

Sorry we can't all be white collar like you, I'll just laugh when you meet someone who isn't and he takes your head off for that attitude.

And unlike Ricky Bobby, your not entitled to say what you want just cuz you say with all due respect.

This thread is laughable...As a person close to the Penn Ortho community, I just want to clear up any rumors for those that may have ranked it #1 on their list and hope to end up there.

Yes, Dr. Gerald Williams left the department some time ago-He is now at Jeff...apparently it was due to financial reasons that were largely a University/Hospital issue and not specific to anything in the Ortho Dept itself. This does stand to hurt the residents that are applying to Sports fellowships because he was the individual that was relied upon to make the phone call of support. Clinically, you will not feel any effects, as your experience with Dr. Williams was largely limited to watching the fellow, watch him operate.

Yes, I have heard Dr. Matt Ramsey may be leaving as well. Can't imagine why this would happen now given the fact that he has now been appointed chief of the shoulder and elbow service with Williams leaving. Time will tell.

Lastly, Penn is not in a financial crisis and hasn't been for quite some time now. As a matter of fact, the residents all received "bonuses" last year because the hospital did so well financially.

The lesson I have learned throughout this whole process is that you should never decide to go to a particular program because of the national players that may be on staff there. Academic Orthopaedics and academic medicine in general is not an entity that lends itself well to stability-there will always be flux at any academic program and this is completely out of your control. Pick a residency based upon those things that are fixed factors (geography, lifestyle, fellow residents etc). You can't go wrong with this strategy!

I agree with the previous post. this post is turning into a Penn specific forum. the fact that the program is accredited should mean something and i doubt that any of us know more than the people who accredit the programs and continuously review them. Every program is going to have turnover. So, the forum should go back to serving the initial question that was asked. Even then, arguments for or againt a program should be limited and perhaps posted on another blog. Otherwise, you guys knock yourselves out talking about Penn! This is just an opinion. I did not start this post but whoever id i think did not want it to be exclusively about Penn.

Dont know how this forum went from best ortho programs to the "Penn forum".

Everyone has the right to think what they want to about programs. Clearly not everyone is going to feel the same way about a program. If anyone thinks hard enough, they will come up with a lot of negatives about any program.

Be very weary of people who post random negative comments about a program: 9/10 times there is a history preceeding the comment. I dont buy that a program that just received a 5 year accreditation, which is a not a small deal, is under major financial difficulty.

I am not going to presume that I know all and say its the absolute best or top whatever for everyone. Its just one that, after interviewing at a lot of the programs mentioned, seemed to stand out to me. Just me. It cleary is not perfect...no program is.

We should let this topic end.....its a trivial one....in a year or so, no one will care...we will be where we match (hopefully) and make the most out of it.

I have recently heard that Gerry Williams the head of the shoulder and elbow division as well as Dr. Getz and possibly Dr. Ramsey is leaving PENN. As Shoulder may be the strongest subspeciality at PENN it would be worrisome to me that there is a mass exodus occurring. PENN has always had financial difficulties and with some of the best faculty leaving it is concerning.

Actually i am going to chime back in again now that jeff was mentioned. They actually produce more quality manuscripts in top ortho journals than upenn.



Hopefully someone wont use this as an opportunity to "humbly" take a juvenile swipe at my rank list.

Staff - Thanks for your effort to publicly reflect on these topics.

In my opinion, one line you said in particular really drives this topic home, at least for me:

"Being a great researcher does not correlate with being a good educator."

Your blog helped me make my rank list on February 20th. I'm sure there are others, and hopefully that gives you some encouragement to continue.

Thanks

This topic comes up every other year. Someone will sing UPenn's praises and invariably someone will make some negative comment. I've posted about this topic sometime ago. I rotated at UPenn as a med student and at Jefferson. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again: Upenn is NOT the best program even in Philly. Jefferson is hands down the better ORTHOPEDIC program. The volume of surgery at Jeff is staggering. And don't be fooled, it's not just joints and spine. all specialties are covered.

I enjoyed my time at Penn and do believe it's a good program. But I agree with the poster who stated that it's reputation is somewhat based on its Ivy league name. This is absolutely true. Similar with Hopkins as Sawbonz stated. But fatman is correct in saying that Penn has a good program and the residents were very happy when I rotated there as well. But sorry fatman, Jeff takes the cake in my book.

Just wanted to chime in...

It's really easy when looking at programs to get sucked in to the big academic names that get thrown around on this website and the circuit. Think more about what you want to end up doing. If you want to do a lot of research and be a chairman someday, then yeah...check out the big names (i.e. HSS, Harvard, Hopkins, etc.) You'll have the name, research opportunities, and connections to flourish academically. You may give up some things though...like lifestyle, more personalized teaching, one-on-one OR time.

These are generalizations, of course. There are obviously big places that are well-rounded (Case Western comes to mind.) Just be wary of thinking you'll only get good training at the big academic places. You'll be a great orthopod no matter where you go given you stay disciplined and motivated.

To mention a few specific places. I rotated at Penn as a student. I agree that it does get a lot of attention because it's Ivy League, but it's a great bunch of guys and the staff is dedicated to teaching.

I've spent significant time at Hopkins. It DEFINITELY get undeserved attention/credit just because of the name. Ortho is the red-headed step child of the hospital and gets crapped on. There's tons of NIH money at Hopkins, but NONE of it goes to ortho. Also, it's an extremely tense and unpleasant atmosphere. The residents get abused, mostly as juniors and on call; and it gets to them after a while. They're losing their only foot and ankle surgeon, and the hand rotation is next to worthless with very little volume. Peds and the rotations at other hospitals are the highlights.

Find a program that fits your personality and career goals.

i am glad that you all came to a conclusion on this discussion ... the fatman summed it up ... i think you all get caught up in the ranking of programs ... who is the best ... the best is different for every person ... and is different on the east coast than on the west coast ... academics and community ... so, fatman and all thanks for summing it up ...

i am going to refer to a couple of things i posted ... read them if you want ....





thanks all

I concur.

Here is all I am saying, regardless of anything else, when considering a residency program there are a number of things which anyone should consider, and some which are going to be specific to the individual.

Things that anyone should consider:

1. What will my life be like in each PGY year? This is particularly important if you are married

2. Will I learn what I need to without a lot of needless scut. Some scut, believe it or not is actually useful, as it teaches you to care enough about patients to do things which can be painful.

3. Will I learn what I need to to be able to answer 95% of patient's questions (and examiners questions when it comes to the boards)

4. Will I be able to be a competent surgeon that will go on to a fellowship in the area of my choice, or be able to come straight out of practice and be a general orthopod.

5. Does the program have a teaching style that is conducive to my learning type? (Ours does preceptorship which accomplishes 2 things, assures operative time, and gives one on one training with attendings).

There might be some things I left out, but I think those are the main ones.

Individual things are is geography important, spouse/ significant other preferences, academic v clinical etc.

I think only then can you determine YOUR top programs, and that is really all that matters.

His adiposity

Fatman

Thanks Banging_bones. Nice way to sum it all up. Strong work.

loving_ortho

My 2 cents

1st off, when someone tries to knock a program by saying that "the dont cover any pro sport team", like orthogater1 said, its hard to believe that that person knows what a solid program is made of. Last I heard Mayo was not taking care of any prosport team in Rochester, Mn.....dont hear people complaining.

Pen probably does gain some benefit from its Ivy League name but so do other Ivy programs. Harvard ortho (which is a great program) would not be as competitive if it was not Harvard ...but that is irrelevant.

I think that some might underestimate the importance of good training. I think its the most important aspect of a good residency program...dont want to leave feelining incompetent. Penn excels at this and from an academic stand point, they have RESIDENTS that match associate professors from a publication standpoint. That is uncommon at a lot of "powerhouses".

The program also has an exceptionally collegial athmosphere that you would not find at many places. The residents are very fun and at the same time talented.....it is not uncommon to find residents who ranked Penn over the other "very top programs".

Spine is a weakness at Penn

Trauma is a weakness at HSS

Sports is a weakness at Mayo

Harvard is a somewhat disorganized

etc

My point is all great program have their flaws.. cant think of a program that doesn't. They can all get you great fellowships where you can specialize.

"Academic powerhouses" publish in large quantities. Places such as Iowa, Mayo, HSS, Wash U publish extensively and in a variety of subspecialties. The faculty at Penn don't publish much in the MAJOR ortho journals...the faculty at CHOP do, but not much else.

Let's not throw that word around so much without knowing what it means.

I rotated and interviewed at Penn. It is a good program but like all programs it has its deficiencies. They definitely put on a good show on the interview - moreso than the rotation. Nonetheless, it is a solid, solid place to train, and I would recommend it to anyone.

It wasn't a flame, or at least it wasnt meant to be. I just didnt see what the big appeal was about their program. Versus going after my rank list, which is extremely adult.

I completely agree with Fatman. I know UPenn quite well, and I would rank UPenn to be one of the top 5 programs in the nation. Definitely, stands along side of Harvard, HSS, columbia, Hopkins.

I interviewed at all of them, and unfortunately, many of them have great attendings who won't let you operate. "This guy is world-famous, but won't let you operate." "This guy invented orthopaedic surgery, but won't let you operate." "This guy is the god of sports medicine, but won't let you operate." I won't mention names here. UPenn is one of the few academic powerhouse that stray away from that. I thought columbia and Hopkins were similar in that regards.

I honestly don't care about fellowship since everybody does well in them, but UPenn does produce a lot of leaders in orthopaedic field and that says a lot about the program. The residents were polished when I interviewed there, and they were UNIVERSALLY very very happy with the program.

With all due respect, I disagree with orthogater1. I would humbly suggest checking out his previous post on orthogater1's rank list to see what he considers the top program in the nation. Maybe other than UVA, I've never even heard of most of them. Seems like another one of those bitter-revenge post to me.

So far, I've defended two programs: columbia and UPenn... Everyone should realize that the more people try to trash the program, the more it adds to their greatness.

well I think most ortho programs want to teach...

Penn is a good program. I do think it rides the Ivy league name...and this is the reason it is sometimes mentioned along with some of the academic powerhouses. But in orthopedics, Penn is a good clinical program but is not an academic powerhouse, except the peds department at CHOP.

Dude,

I can personally tell you why Penn is a great program, as I am an intern there now. First and foremost, the focus is on teaching you to be an orthopod, which, I can only assume by the fact that you post on this site that you want to be.

It may be too late for you, as the date for certifying rank lists is over, but for next year's crop, I would recommend remembering that staff comes and goes for reasons that are beyond your control. When choosing a residency program, the important part is a program's philosophy. Penn's philosophy is teaching residents. This is evident in the following way. Where other programs take a lot of fellows (which tends to dilute the operative experience) Penn does not. Penn has a complete contingent of Subspecialists, including Spine, Joints, Hand, Trauma, Sports, Foot and ankle, Shoulder and elbow, Tumor, AND neuro orthopaedics. It is, therefore an extremely well rounded program.

Things like covering sports teams, big names, and fellows may seem like selling points, but the reality of things is that when there are big names, more often than not, fellows are doing the operating, not you, and you are not going to do an ACL on Donovan McNabb, the attending is, and when there are a lot of fellows around, YOUR operative experience is going to be diluted.

I would therefore caution those who go into this next year to focus on programs that have a philosophy to teach you to be a great orthopod, and not to fall for some of the flash that is out there, and choose a program that will teach you as opposed to a program that will scut you and not care about your education. I invite any MS 3 now to rotate with us, and rotate at any other "top" place, I think that they will find that we compare favorably.

Fatman