Ranking programs...

jdoc thaks for the nice words.

As I've said before the interview question may be to help 'guide' the applicant, but although the intent may be benevalent, it will wind up hurting you because of the psychology involved.

No applicant has the same vision of a program that someone who is interviewing candidates does. Even if the program is super academic and the applicant thinks the interviewing program is academic, they will differ on some level.

No two programs are alike, and everyone has conotations about the other program. If you mention one program, the interviewer will always think (and even if they say..we're similar) that you're interested in that program only, and that's what you're interested in. And since no program is alike, they will not think that you want to goto their program, because despite they are "similar" they're still not the same.

If forced into saying which places you rotated at (and I was forced into, I said I went down to here and did one in this state) and they said 'no, which programs'. I tried to explain that I chose them to have a good look at multiple types of programs.. blah blah.


It's a game.. and you have to play it, well,... well.

Obviously I'm not in love with the match system secondary to my history with it. It's great that some interviewers have a different motive for asking the where did you rotate and interview questions than most interviewers out there and you don't let the geography or academic vs. community stuff influence your decision about the applicant in any way whatsoever.

As confirmed above, it is in the best interest of the program (and I would agree the applicant) to be at a program they want to be. Therefore I'd stick to the importance of showing that interest in reasonable professional ways rather than assuming programs know you are interested just because you spent the money you didn't have to get to the interview. So did everybody else. The above post is a great example of what gets people to match. When a program feels the applicant is interested and interested for the right reasons that applicant will be high on the list. Maybe, then, the way to answer these inevitable questions is to focus the answer on why you rotated at those programs and let the geography slide hoping for more of the above type interviewer than the usual. Again, forgive the sinicism. Someday I may get over it, but being involved on the other side of the process has not helped much. It may take some time. I'm just hoping someone out there may pick up on the importance of not assuming this process is all above board and objective. Most people realize that, but a few may not and hopefully will not go through it as passively and nievely as I did the first time around. Hopefully they spell better than I do as well (sorry).

I'm going to disagree. I ask this question to people I interact with or interview in order to help them make good decisions, pointing out where our program may be different (better or worse) than other programs they are familiar with. It is in the interests of our program and the applicant to have people who wanted to come to the program, AND wanted to come for the right reasons. We gain nothing by selling a tall story that isn't true, and an applicant arriving and finding out we aren't who we said we were.

I read the post, and as I didn't match first time around but did the second I had to chime in. I think some great points are made above.

First, the whole where else did you interview and where did you rotate question. Programs don't invite people to interview unless they are comfortable with them as a potential resident at that program on paper. After that cut has been made they look for reasons (any reasons) to rank the applicants. They definately want someone at their program who wants to be at their program (they've had both in the past and someone who does not want to be there is a huge drag on the other residents and the attendings not to mention the mess it makes when a resident leaves a program). These questions are a way for them to start to guage your interest in them. Unfortunately, it's a game. Those who play it well will match. You don't need to be dishonest, but don't fool yourself by thinking they are being totally upfront with you. If they tell you things like "you are an exceptional applicant, and I think you would do very well at this program" (heard this and varriations at several interviews right before not matching at all), understand that they are simply trying to get you to bump them up on your rank list. If you rotated only in the midwest and you're interviewing at a California program, they want to know so they can bump you down the list. Applicants start looking very similar once you get to those you invite to interview, and the little things start becoming big things. It is in their best interest to ideally have every applicant rank their program number one so they would have their pick of whomever. They will do whatever it takes to acheive or come close to that (do a little search on the ask the attending forum and see some telling confessions by attendings).

Second, contacting your top programs. If nobody did this it wouldn't matter. However, many applicants do this so it does matter. If you are that applicant who is higher on the rank list but does not call, you will be bumped in favor of the applicant who showed interest. Again, programs want applicants who will be happy at their program. Case in point -- three applicants in my class interviewed at a certain midwestern program. Only two of us actually were initially invited to interview. The third had rotated there, made several phone calls to residents and attendings after being rejected for an interview and eventually actually was given an interview. Guess which one of the three matched at that program. Not the two who made the initial list, but the one who didn't make the cut initially but showed the most interest. Don't discount this. It is truly a big deal. However, don't lie. That's also a big deal. Ortho is a small world, and you can get caught in telling multiple programs they are your number one pretty easily.

Third, the outside the match thing. I turned down an offer outside the match too, but thankfully matched. It's a long story, but needless to say an extremely difficult and personal decision. It had mostly to do with family (ergo the where did you rotate and where have you interviewed question from interviewers). I felt strongly that I should turn the offer down, and I'm glad I did. However, that didn't prevent me from feeling sick for a couple days and second guessing myself for a couple months afterward. I had received one of those "you're in our top whatever" emails that helped me (though, again, the email could have just been part of playing the game).

To both Iliz and Calvin the best of luck this time around. It's very difficult to do this twice. Matching is worth it all, however, so stick with it. I got sick of the why ortho and why didn't you match the first time questions too. However, I don't answer them anymore. I just go to work and am thankful I'm an ortho resident. You'll get there. I have a friend who went through it three times and failed only to get a last minute spot outside the match. You can bet he was on cloud nine when that call came. Hang in there. Your dedication will get you through anything residency can throw at you, and you'll appreciate being an ortho resident more than most residents really can.

That seems like a match violation atleast in spirit.

The only reason I asked my dean & ortho chair was because the PD from UMKC told us on interview day they would contact us and that if we ranked them lower, it might prevent us from being ranked at all.

just a point about the rules, a program can't force (or expect) you to tell them where you have applied (assuming that you applied to every place you rotated).

"In addition, it is a breach of the applicable Match Participation Agreement for:

(c) a program to require applicants to reveal the names or identities of programs to which they have or may apply"

so, while it may be skirting the issue, you don't have to say anything about any other place.

Me too!!!!!

After interviewing I am convinced that many interviewers don't read your letters of rec. I got asked about where I did aways all the time, even though some of my letters said I rotated there and it has a huge logo in the upper right hand corner of the page.

It seems however that they would know anyway since your LORs would most likely be from faculty at the programs you rotated at. So once they read them they will know already. But then again, if they are asking you, maybe they didn't read them yet...

Dude you'd be surprised. I had to explain the match to my RESIDENT today, who presumably has gone thru the match once already.

If someone did not know this by now, then they should not be entering the match. This is prelim information that everyone knows. I am shocked that you just found out the way you did.

I spoke to my dean and ortho chair about the match process. Tey explained how the system FAVORS THE APPLICANT. The algorithm is set up to match applicants at the highest possible program. Even if you didn't match at all your top places, but did match at a program you ranked lower, you will get that program. You aren't penalized for ranking a program lower.

It also benefits the programs because a program would rather get an applicant they ranked higher, even if the applicant ranked them lower, then to get one they ranked lower and miss out on the higher applicant.

Keep in mind, post-interview communication from the programs FAVORS THE PROGRAMS. They are trying to get you to rank them higher, so it increases THEIR chances of a match, not yours.

I thought this was very helpful since the whole Match process is so confusing.

My thinking with aways/SubI's is that as known entity those programs are more likely to put you a little higher on the list if you did well, compared to someone that they just met for a day. However as stated everywhere else, the algorithm does favor the student for sure.

I guess I didn't even think about it when people asked where I have interviewed at or where I rotated at, I just told them. For me I didn't have anything to really say, other than I chose all of those places because I thought my family could live there, and that was important to me.

Maybe I was just naive during this process, oh well, lets roll the dice!

Ya, towards the end I felt like I was on auto-pilot. The answers seem to come out without even really thinking about it.

well.. that's a tough call, like you said.
If a program asks.. why'd you choose the places you rotated at.. that's a different story.. they want to know what you were thinking.

But, if they are simpling asking because they are curious, then I opt for the answer I mentioned above.

i would say 9/10 people will judge you based on where you rotate, that's just how it goes. The whole conviction argument is only a small fraction of the time, and I think those people would ask why you rotated as opposed to just 'where'.. that's my opnion at least.

and yes, interviewing sucks.. because they're just looking for the smallest negative you can possibly find, even if it isn't a negative.. ugh.. I hate this process.. I can't believe that between these two years I have gone on over 30 interviews, and answered the question 30 * 4, "why orthopaedics" over 120 times.. I don't think I can come up with that many variations.. ugh! haha

I think that is heavily dependent on the program. Some interviewers are looking for someone who is confident in their decisions and doesn't beat around the bush. If you answered a question the way you suggest they would think you are a wuss and there go your chances.

While other interviewers are more political, trying to lead you down a path to say something stupid, even if it is the truth.

The trick is figuring out what category they fall into in the fraction of a second while you introduce yourself.

Ya, interviewing sucks!

capneedles mention there is the exact reason why people have the belief that doing a rotation is the key into getting into a program. It's not a cause and effect relationship, it's just a correlation. People rank their away rotations higher, and the programs usually rank the students higher. That's how it goes... so people think you need to ace the rotations in order to get into residency, which is not true (although you *should* work your ass off, but that's another story). You should keep in mind that the value of the away rotation is to get your feet wet, get some letters and contacts. If nothing else, it's something to talk about on your interview. I can't tell you how many times I have been asked where I rotated on interviews. I learned my lesson, I don't say anymore. I say oh, I rotated here in the northeast or *insert whatever region you're currently in*. Usually no one asks that.

Like for instance, I have been asked 'where else have you interviewed'. I don't list programs anymore, I say "oh, in NY, some in california.. anywhere, since matching is the most important".. that answers the quesiton, and I think in effect eliminates the possibilitiy of them judging you for your choice in rotation. Trust me on that one.

Second what spiff said. Reach for the stars, the algorithm is in your favor.

However, that being said, if you were to spend extra time going on second looks, etc. the time and money would probably be better used on those programs you have a higher chance at to try and secure a spot as best you can.

Yes, you are 100% correct.. however, there are cases where the following happens.

Unfortunately, there is always post-interview communication. Whether or not each party solicits it from eachother is another problem. The fact is, it happens.

Candidate has program Y ranked #2 or #3 on their list.

Candidate has contact with program Y. Program Y hears that the candidate is going to put them #1 on his/her list (through a phone call from a PD, email from candidate, whatever). Program Y bumps up candidate to a top rank spot. If the candidate had them only 2 or 3 on the list, program Y may have not done that.

Of course, the candidate can always lie, but they shouldn't, because it's wrong.

Candidate matches at Program Y.

I don't know whether this is wrong or right, ethically, but it most certainly happens. I do know that this is OKAY as far as match regulations are concerned. Programs want people who want to go to their program, and vica versa. It's hedging your bet, so to speak.