This may be an un-answerable question...

I don't think anybody said that.

Y'all are silly if you don't think medical school name matters. OF COURSE IT DOES. Face it, some people are in the club, and some are not. That's the way the world works. Log on to some of the top residency programs, look at their current residents, and you will see that by and large, most come from the same 10 schools or so.

School name can also work against you. After I didn't match the first time, I was able to get some feedback, and one of the community programs said I dropped down their rank list because of my pedigree. They figured I wouldn't be happy at a non-university program.

Programs are looking for the best fit, whatever that means for them...

I don't mean this in an offensive way, but in every thread on the subject, you make a comment about how much med school plays a role. However, your opinion is obviously skewed in your posts because you want to place the blame of not matching last year on your school and not on yourself. Yes, there is a chance someone ruled you out due to school, but more than likely there was another factor involved. You have no better idea of how much school plays a role than any other applicant. You have not sat on selection comittees like many other posters here have. And the fact still remains that many applicants from lesser schools match over their paper equivalents from bigger name schools. I don't think you should be persuading anyone to attend a school based solely on reputation.

I'm a resident. I have been in their shoes, and have seen the rank meetings.

Everyone has these things, but to varying degrees. Some have very high board scores, some have lots of publications/presentations, some have great extracurricular activities, some are the whole package. In spite of what you think, not all aplicants are equal. Some just make a better impreesion on interview day for whatever reason. And some programs place higher value on different things (I.E. higher board scores vs Med school name.)

hrm.. well, despite that jbjs article.. med school reputation plays big into it.

There is an inherent bias in that statistic.. it's based on importance overall, but not for 'groupings' of candidates. For instance, it does not reflect the degree of board score.

ie.. there's very little difference between a 270 and a 250, as far as an application is concerned. Whereas, there's a huge difference between a 230 and a 250.. same point differential, but everything is relative.

When you are applying for competitive programs, everyone is in the same boat.. they all have high board scores, all have high clinical grades, top ranked in the class, have the research, etc..

They all meet the check list requirements for that JBJS article... so now what's left? Who 'fits in' ? Well, that goes with personality, and of course, your pedigree. Some programs weight each one of these differently. It depends on what arena you apply in.

We all like to be idealistic and think these things don't make a difference, but the most minute of details make a HUGE difference. Sure, it may be 1 or 2 ranks.. but that is all the world of a difference. Even how you comb your hair that day on interview can have an effect.

Just put yourself in the interviewers shoes.. they see like 60 people in a day... how on earth are they going to remember who you are? We all look alike, we all have great grades, we all did research, we all have something *interesting* on our CV.. now what?? shoe size? lol

Just to throw some statistics in there, there is no statistical significance between items 1 and 22. All you can state is that perhaps there are some trends. If the confidence interval of one value sits within the confidence interval of another value, then the two values are not statistically significant. So, 7.88 - 1.71 = 6.17 and 3.99 + 2.48 = 6.47. Therefore you really shouldn't say that Board Score is so much more important than medical school reputation. The statistics and the article do not support this statement, even if the table attempts to make you think that.

The bottom line for me when I hear about someone getting lots of interviews and not matching is that it relates to their personality or some "vibe" they are giving off when they interview. I have run into several in my time of interviewing from the other side. Also, Dirschl from UNC wrote a nice couple of articles on how to select residents. I assume they didn't lie to us when they told us during interviews that everyone who has ever interviewed there has matched. Whatever their criteria is (they have a complete scoring system... look up the article under his name), it appears to have some correlation with matching long-term.

In the end, there are lots of factors out there. Sometimes people are accidentally missed. Sometimes people are just not very interesting in person or wouldn't "fit in". Sometimes you just have to face the music that you aren't competitive with other applicants. Sometimes you are fighting biases about your background (good or bad), education, or location. There usually isn't just one issue.

Personal appearance is like a personal statement. Being like everyone else doesn't help you, but being different (in a bad way) will majorly hurt you.

I'm surprised that undergraduate GPA is a factor at all.

Its surprising to me that Personal Appearnce at Interview is so high seeing as how everyone says that all the applicants look the same. Also its interesting that research is so low on the list; seems like I shouldn't be killing my self to get on a bunch of projects.

Also I think # 22 is BS. I know enough less than steller folks that matched because daddy used to be a resident there or daddy knows the PD.

Or more simply summarized by:

1) get smart on Step I
2) apply broadly
3) have friends within the department
4) attempt to avoid "DB-ness". Sounds stupid, but in general you should probably refrain from giving your position on any given agenda whilst on an interview... whether on how to manage a fx (remember you're relatively-ignorant) or on SOB'ama's bill passage. As a student, you're only valued by your ability to make work easier and permit more free OR time, and NOT how to make OR/ER procedures easier.

BONUS POINTS: take call. Volunteer if you must. Stand sleepy holding retractors at 2am. The only thing residents want is other residents they trust to be able to work.

It's not surprising what things score more than med school reputation (aways, grades, boards, AOA, interview stuff), but it is interesting what things med school reputation does out score (MSPE, PS, research, pubs, failed to match, phones calls, thank yous).

All that extra fluff stuff we all spend so much time worrying about apparently is not as important as the decision of where to go to med school.

that article that agent13 posted had a nice summary table with a rank of the aspects that PDs use to select residents; its posted below. I think this is pretty valid b/c 70% of the PDs actually took this survey as compared to other studies which the ortho participation was pretty low.



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lol..

Having not matched and applied to like, 60 some-odd programs the first time.. neah..

STep 1 score is not the be all end all.

Once you have above 240, you're competitive. No matter where you apply.

Now you need to look at where you goto school.. is it a good name school? yes no?

did you do well in your clinicals? (honors med/surg?)

The reason why I stress the school is as follows]


Step one score is pretty far ahead of med school rep in this JBJS study on resident selection criteria.

http://www.ejbjs.org/cgi/reprint/84/11/2090

Anyway I can't imagine there are too many scenarios are so identical that the tie breaker comes down to medical school. I think someone is overthinking their recent match setback.

ors,

This is great. Thanks.

First, you chances of getting into Ortho depend on:
1. Your Step I score (less than 235 add 10 programs)
2. Your grades (clinical more than the first two years), (If you did not honor most or all of your clinicals add 5-10 programs)
3. Research (no research add 10 programs, some research add 5, tons of research add none)
4. LOR (strong add none, unsure add 5)
5. Who is pulling for you from your home programs and programs you rotated at (Strong pull add none, weak add 5)
6. Your Sub-I (Strong, plus a letter add none. Any thing else add 5)
7. How many programs you apply to.

It is obvious, but the weaker candidate you are in each category, you should add programs.

What can you do to improve your chances now that the application period is coming up.

1. If you did not make your Step one goal, take Step 2 early and make sure the programs have your score (assuming you will rock it)

2. Make honors on you clinicals and your Sub-I. You have to rock your sub-I. Volunteer for call, show up early and leave late. Know the exposure for every case. Go out (but do not get sloppy drunk) with the residents.

3. Start as many research projects as you can (at least they will be in progress and you can discuss them at interviews)

4. Ask for more letters than you need. You will know which ones to use even if you do not make them open.

5. Make a meeting with your program chairman and ask her/him for help. If you get to know them now you can ask them to call programs for you after you interview and this will help.

If you take all the above into account, you should apply to between 10 and 50 programs.

Remember that you need to make a life decision and decide if you can be happy anywhere for 5 years. If you can you should apply to more programs.

If not, have a back up plan and only apply where you will be happy.

Good Luck.

I matched this year on my first time around. I did the couples match with my fiance who is going into pediatrics. I had a 234 on step 1 mostly honors in 3rd and 4th year and very strong letters (2 said the residents are heavily recruiting this guy). I took step 2 in feb and got a 236, so it wasn't available to programs when they did their ranks.

I applied to 88 programs and got 19 interviews. I could only attend 12 due to conflicts, and only went on 10 because I didn't want to skip the social events on the night before. Attending the night before event is tricky. At some places I really don't think that it matters, but at most I feel it gives you a chance to stand out as a normal person. I ended up matching at a program that puts some weight into the social event prior to the interview as well as the get-together after the interview. I even cancelled an interview so I could attend the social event prior to interivew day. I am glad I did because I matched at my top choice.

I guess my point is this: Apply to as many programs as you can afford. I had 19 interviews and could only make 12. There aren't that many interview days for ortho. There are only 6 or 7 weekends that most ortho programs interview on and I swear 25% are on the second weekend of january. I had 7 interview offers on Jan 8th and 9th. I only went on one that weekend and ended up matching there, but the chances are not in your favor.

Apply to as many as possible!!

lol..

Having not matched and applied to like, 60 some-odd programs the first time.. neah..

STep 1 score is not the be all end all.

Once you have above 240, you're competitive. No matter where you apply.

Now you need to look at where you goto school.. is it a good name school? yes no?

did you do well in your clinicals? (honors med/surg?)

The reason why I stress the school is as follows:

I feel that folks who are 'great candidates' and goto shitty schools (no school is shitty, but let's just say.. not so heard of school) are what I call 'inbetweeners'.

I was one of those. I had the scores, etc. that got me interviews at the big places, but the little places didn't think I would go there.. why? because I was 'too competitive'.

But then, when push came to shove at the big programs, depsite having great scores, the inbetweener will always be ranked lower than the kid with the good pedigree.

Consider the following:
step 1: 260, all honors, school: SUNY Stonybrook
step 1: 240, all honors, school: Yale.

Both 'guys' are great personalities..

So, who would you rank above the other? Does 20 points on step 1 out weigh a long track record of ivy league'ness?

I think we all know the answer to that.

You have to choose based on all of the factors.. and of course, also who is going to go to bat for you, which is probably the most important.

I really kinda like the 295- Step 1 score formula too. That should be ur minimum. I will be applying to about 10 additional programs than what the formula suggests.

Excellent. This isn't actually a bad scheme... except I'd maybe do 290 minus Step 1.

I spent a thousand bucks on applications and quite another bit on interviews. And you know what? I ended up matching at my first choice which happened to be the first place I interviewed so I probably could've just applied to the first 3 on my list and then saved a bunch of money on applications/interviews. Unfortunately, no one has that kind of foresight. Also, it's kind of fun to go on interviews, and it really is dramatic how different programs can be. I'm very lucky to land where I did and simply can't imagine how the other 99% live.

Apply broadly. Take as many interviews as your schedule will allow. Spend money to do so because it's simply a great investment.