Truths or Just Rumors about California Programs?

I know someone already told you this, but your name rocks.

Seriously, I second Beef Curtain's plea for info on Cali programs. To add one more thing, is it really true, or just orthogate lore, that Cali programs generally only accept CA residents? Any legit data are appreciated.

Not sure if this is helpful but:
When I interviewed at UCLA (did not rotate) the residents both junior and senior made a point to "dispel" the myth that they don't operate. They all claimed to be very happy with their experience and the program as a whole. Most of their residents were from Cali but not all. I was told when I called to find out that I was in their second tier (of four) on their rank list. I did not match there. They rarely go out of the first tier according to the chair on interview day.

USC: I know they take people from out of state because a guy from my medschool (UTSW) matched there two years ago without rotating. On my interview day a couple of attendings told me in no uncertain terms that state of origin did not matter to them and that I could come there if I wanted to. I matched at a program higher on my list so I can't tell you if they were just blowin smoke up my ass. I was turned off by the trauma heavy load and by the miserable facilities at LA County (no air conditioning, are they kidding?), so I ranked them near the bottom of my list.

Those are the only two cali programs that I interviewed at (or applied to for that matter). A classmate of mine interviewed at UCI and loved it, but that's all I know about it.

I will try to answer some of the questions presented by BeefCurtains.

The California programs are terrific, but they probably do not get the same amount of respect that their east coast brethren receive. For one thing, the reputation of their undergraduate schools and medical schools (with the exception of Stanford) are arguably lower on the academic scale compared to the Ivy League schools. The following comments are my own impression from interviews and rotations from last year.

I'm not sure where the rumor started that UC Davis is the best. I think it is an excellent program, but is considered to be "sliding" by some. Sacramento is also not a fun town. UCSF is a program with a great reputation, but it is a tough grind. The attendings are malignant. I understand that many UCSF medical students choose NOT to stay at UCSF orthopaedics if possible. UCLA residents operate a lot at their outside hospitals, but not that much at UCLA proper. Lifestyle is excellent at UCLA and is apparently a good mix of operative time, clinic time, and free time. Also, this program does an outstanding job matching its residents with fellowships. USC is trauma heavy. It will be interesting to see how this program changes to comply with the 80-hour workweek rules. Nonetheless, USC residents definitely know how to operate when they finish and can be considered "trauma-fellowship trained" by the time they finish (if you like that kind of thing). UCSD is a solid program, but it is six years long (at least the last time I looked). San Diego is a nice town.

It would be hard to rank these programs, but I would probably rank them:
1. UCLA
2. UCSD
3. UCSF
4. Stanford
5. UC Davis
6. UCI
7. USC

This is taking into account lifestyle, operative experience, and academic reputation. Feel free to comment.

BeefCurtains, are you f'in kiddin me??????? That's hilarious, I should'a been BeardedSalmonTaco or something, I sure missed out. MSIII's feel free to take this and run, its not like there is a majority of PC females on this website.

As far as Cali goes, I have no idea. Wish they all could be SOUTHERN GIRRRRLLLLLLSSSS!
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I attend one of the California medical schools. After rotating at a few programs, I would say that the most balanced and well-rounded training programs are UCD and UCSF. UCLA, unfortunately, lacks in OR experience. It has no contiguous affiliation with a county hospital and thus very little autonomy - two months as a fifth year at Harbor is ?too little, too late?. UCSD is a great program in a beautiful area, but is a poor option for those who do not care to do an extra year of research. Stanford has neither a chair nor decent didactics and is still trying to get their board scores up to par. I don?t know about USC or UCI, but have heard very positive comments about UCI.

I would rank them:

1) UCD
2) UCSF
3) UCSD
4) UCI
5) UCLA
6) Stanford
7) USC

Anyone happen to see VH1's latest "where are they now"? Did you notice that former Olympic skater Debbie Thomas is at the King/Drew program? Cracked me up. Just a random cali programs factoid for you all.

Funny how caught up everyone seems with the academic affiliated programs in Cali. The best program in California my not even be on that list-San Fran program. Considering the operative experience, OITE scores (a loosely moderate reflection on academic experience), fellowship placement, and non-malignancy among staff and residents, all of the above comments seem to lack depth and are probably just bits and pieces of hearsay (thanks matlock). Perhaps the only knock would be lack of research (esp bench work), which any clinically motivated resident could overcome.

Boneblaster,
Is King/Drew now non-accredited? I heard from a rads applicant that the hospital went bust - lack of funding.

i don't know about king/drew, but they are still listed on freida. must be a reason that they consistently have not filled their spot(s).

Tobin,

Maybe you want to remain anonymous as to which CA program you are in, but I am considering a subI at UCD as we speak and would appreciate any info. I have the feeling that either you are in that program or rotated there based on your post. If either of the above are true, could I contact you? and how?

Thanks

I can understand where you're coming from. there are just so many rumors about the cali programs. Here are my insights


1. UCD
Happy residents, nice attendings, hugely trauma heavy with crappy lifestyle. sacramento isn't for everyone, especially if you're considering the other cali programs.

2. UCSF
Same disclaimer as UCSD (didn't rotate). Great OR experience, great academic faculty who are well known and rapidly diminishing malignancy (many of the older guys, including the chairman, are leaving and the new faculty are supposedly much nicer). You do get worked pretty hard though and the ancillary staff is probably the worst among the major cali programs. The residents are happiest when at affiliated hospitals, not at UCSF med center (probably because they operate more with nicer attendings at other hospitals).
San Fran is a great city too.

3. UCI
Lots of OR, nice attendings, nice lifestyle, not trauma heavy. Not the brainiest program and with lesser known attendings. Orange county can be great or boring. this program is a lot like stanford but with a lesser national name (perhaps undeservedly so)

4. Stanford:
I rotated here as well. The residents were quite happy from plentiful OR time, not being trauma heavy, benign staff, and generally easy lifestyle. However, these aren't the sharpest guys in the world. In fact, i was pretty underwhelmed at the lack of brainy-ness from the residents and woeful lack of academic talent in the faculty (only 2 attendings are well-known)
Tons of clinic, average ancillary staff for california, Palo Alto is either great or boring (depending on your preference) and of course no chairman for three years.
Then again, the residents are happy both inside and outside the hospital.

5. UCLA:
From my experience (as a rotator), the rumors about ucla are all TRUE. The residents really don't operate that much.
I saw fellows fighting over cases, leaving the poor R4 holding retractors. The really poor R2 got to write orders. fun.
some of the residents admitted that only half the chiefs could be competent in general ortho private practice. I believe it since I didn't think the chiefs were particularly talented (largely from inexperience) in simple trauma cases. They're all smart guys but i personally would be pretty annoyed and unhappy working hard but not getting the benefits of operative time. While the residents were indeed happy, they were mostly happy only when they left the hospital.


6. UCSD
I didn't rotate here. All I know is from residents at my home institution and from when I interviewed there. The research year comes after your internship and this SUCKS. Even the chairman admits this is the one thing he would change if he could. The faculty say they don't ask the resident's opinion on the research year scheduling because they know the answer already.
I also thought they exaggerated their OR experience and resident camraderie. They seem like a disparate group with often conflicting personalities - with each other and the facult. Considering how small they are, that could be a disaster.
On the other hand, it's probably not as malignant as people say and like UCLA, the residents are very happy when they leave the hospital (it's San Diego after all).

Oh, they have SATURDAY conferences. terrible.

bimodalortho, aren't you a third year med student in miami? how is it that you were able to rotate at all these places and go on interviews?

my two cents on cali ortho programs is that there isn't a perfect program. each program has tradeoffs, ie, ucd has great training/attendings but get worked hard and have to live in sac. ucla is in a great location, but has a suboptimal operative experience. there isn't really a consensus on what is the best program... if you really want to match in cali, you just have to decide what's most impt to you - location, reputation, training, or resident happiness.

now that stanford has just named Maloney (from Wash U) as their new chairman, would have anyone have ranked/interviewed any differently?

What about Loma Linda program [please no more comments that the city is full of LA smog and is to hot to live in like I hear from everyone else in Cali]

they're only telling you that eta cuz they want it to themselves!
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cali is great and i'd give a spleen or something else expendable to go back!!!

now that several have interviewed at the cali programs are the rumors below true or not?

also what programs in cali have affordable housing nearby for residents? i really don't want to live in a cardboard box in san fran

good luck to all on the interview trail

SF is almost as (if not as) expensive as Manhattan, even surrounding 'burbs are somewhat astronomical. LA can be pricey too, especially in the more desirable areas (i.e. near the beach, west LA). Cheaper rents can be found in the less fashionable neighborhoods of LA, but still $$$ if you compare to rents in the South or Midwest. That said, California is beautiful with many perks, and can be quite addictive. Davis has the reputation of being the best. USC is a huge program (50 residents) that is considered a "working man's/woman's" program - you operate early/a lot, spend a good portion of time on trauma (in house call all 5 years), get minimal didactics, but graduate capable to handle nearly anything. The word is that 'SC grads are as good as fellowship trained in trauma. UCLA: operate late, super academic. Loma Linda: not the most hip of places to live, but you'd be in Cali.

UCSF: SF is an expensive place to live, but recently UCSF residents received a large raise. $500 / month for housing allowance while at UC. it still hasn't gone into effect at the VA and at SFGH, but probably will soon. with the extra cash, money shouldn't be a deciding factor. also, it is not a malignant program. the residents are a happy bunch of guys/gals. great group of people.

Thought I would bump this thread up a bit to see if anyone would be willing to talk some more about the cali programs now that the whole ROL process is finished. I'm a third year from the east coast thinking about a cali away elective, especially at either UCSD or Stanford. Any impressions from those of you who spent time there/are a resident there/interviewed there would be appreciated. thanks

Similar question for me - I'm trying to figure out if I should do a sub-I at UCLA or UCSF. I really like both programs for obviously different reasons, but I was wondering if anyone had insight enough to compare the two. I'd say my preference is to be in San Francisco as a city, but I hear the UCSF reputation isn't as good as UCLA. Is this true? How is the fellowship match from each program? How about residency life - good or bad?

Thanks in advance for all your advice.