The Gateway to Your Orthopaedic Career.
  Sunday, 22 February 2009
  33 Replies
  15 Visits
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not trying to get people up in arms about this, but i'd just like to get a sense of how the different california programs are regarded around the nation at the current time. some of them have gone through big changes recently, so i just wanted to hear people's thoughts on them, especially the residents and the rotators. thanks for your input and good luck with the match.
15 years ago
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#54639
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Hrm.. UCSF fresno.

I interviewed at this place, and yes it is new, and everyone has its reservations. However, I actually really liked the program.

It's run mostly by traumatologists, as they do see a lot of trauma. My understanding is that they have two dedicated ortho rooms running every day. They also had a decent private practice / sports setup. They also operate out of kaiser permanente.. Seems like a good place.

A variety of the trauma attendings trained at good places like tampa and harbor.


The attendings seemed very friendly, and good guys to work with. This would definitely a place that you would grow with, and get a LOT of operating experience as a junior. They also have PA's which means you wouldn't have to deal with as much scut work.

The 100 / 3 ratio is not true, it's like 30-60/3. Anyway, I would definitely take a serious look at this program, especially if you're not the best candidate, you can use their 'newbie' aspect of their program to your advantage.

-iliiz
15 years ago
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#54638
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I'm a UCSD resident - was disappointed that no other residents had shared some positive points about UCSD - so thought I'd say a few things.

UCSD is often over-looked as being nothing more than located in San Diego, and therefore residents have a great life and no one gives it much more thought. But if you believe that, you'll be selling yourself short.

The program here at UCSD is robust, educational, balanced, and very enjoyable. We have a great diversity of hospitals (VA, Childrens, Community, Private, Kaiser) and a range of attendings from young and just out of fellowship (great teachers, let you do a lot, fun to work with) to older and well-established (great wisdom, high expectations, make you a better person/surgeon).

The residents are equally diverse and come from a variety of backgrounds with a broad spectrum of hobbies and interests. We're overall very hard-working, we all get along, and we still have time to enjoy San Diego.

Not much needs to be said about San Diego - it's the greatest city in the world. Last Sunday (literally...December 12th 2010) I was at the beach because it was 85 degrees outside. Where else can you do that?

But....don't discount San Diego's other advantages - namely that we're 20 miles from Mexico and serve much of the South-West United States. For those two reasons, our trauma experience is amazing due to a combination of border jumpers, Mexican patients (failed treatments in Mexico), and desert injuries (ATV/dune buggies). The Children's hospital is always ranked in the top 3 for Orthopaedics, the Hand service regularly has top ratings, and our chairman is a spine surgeon and thus that is another strength. We have hired fellowship trained surgeons in foot/ankle, oncology, sports, and joints - all within the last two years! As you can see, we're committed to improving every specialty in orthopaedics, and we're doing a great job.

In addition to all this, we have a great operative experience and all of our chief residents go on to match at top their top-choice fellowships, which are always the top-rated ones around the country.

One thing that makes us unique is a dedicated research year during PGY-2. Many applicants falsely believe this is a disadvantage of the program. From my perspective, and the perspective of the program, the research year is one of the things that makes the residents and the program so strong. Everyone has the potential to get MULTIPLE publications based on original clinical and basic science research during that year. That means that when you graduate, your CV looks way better than everyone else you're interviewing against. Just like when applying to residency... everyone "looks good on paper," but if you have 10 publications and the guy next to you has 1 case report - you're gonna look like a rockstar. Those publications also get you a better/higher paying job down the road, so the "year of lost earnings" will certainly pay itself back significantly.

Additionally, during that research year residents actually have time to read up on Ortho - something that every says they want to do during intern year, but nobody actually has time to do. That's one of the reasons we score well on the in-training exam.

Lastly, if you had a "research" year, where would you want to spend it? San Diego... of course. Even with research and studying, it's a totally chill year and many residents use that time to get married, have children, take significant vacations, work in 3rd world countries, etc...

Overall, UCSD is an incredibly well-balanced program with the STRENGTH of a research year that is not matched by any other California program, and maybe not any program anywhere.

If you were lucky enough to be offered an interview at UCSD - we look forward to meeting you in January. If you have any questions in advance of your visit, please feel free to PM me.
15 years ago
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#54637
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Agreed. Fresno is likely the last-place school in Cali, as it is completely new and is still in the "We'll interview 100 people for our 3 spots" phase. Furthermore, though w the ucsf banner, it is well over a hundred miles from San Fran or even the coast. Finally, being new, most of the top academic faculty in California are already associated w other programs.

I know Stanford or UCLA are likely the most academic. In terms of funding and productivity.

The other UC programs are somewhere in the middle, but each has their individual strengths, already mentioned here:
Davis - Peds
SF - Joints
Irvine - Hand
Harbor - Trauma
15 years ago
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#54636
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Perhaps disinformation to scare off the competition? Rotated there. Hard working, but not malignant by a long shot. Hope I kill the interview there next week.
15 years ago
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#54635
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Brand new, therefore no track record. Has to be considered last choice in California till proven otherwise since all the other programs are very respectable.
15 years ago
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#54634
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Any thoughts on UCSF-Fresno?
15 years ago
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#54633
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Also, Does anyone know who the best attending to get a letter from at the General?
15 years ago
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#54632
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I was wondering how competative UCSF is? Can anybody tell me what they look for in an applicant? Ie. Step 1 range, grades, etc.
16 years ago
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#54631
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UCLA has much more operative experience vs the past (but still the best lifestyle)

Good lifestyle]

I guess I'm confused as to what constitutes the change in "work to education value" and how to distinguish between "best"/"tops"/"cush" lifestyles. Could you elaborate?


I agree completely. It shows how subjective theses posts are. Beware of what you read on here.
16 years ago
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#54630
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UCLA has much more operative experience vs the past (but still the best lifestyle)

Good lifestyle]

I guess I'm confused as to what constitutes the change in "work to education value" and how to distinguish between "best"/"tops"/"cush" lifestyles. Could you elaborate?
16 years ago
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#54629
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Why do so many current fourth year students, particularly those that have rotated on the UCSF service, believe that the program is "malignant." What does this imply.
16 years ago
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#54628
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The programs in cali have changed.

It appears (from the interview's) that Stanford is turning much more academic (good or bad????)

UCLA has much more operative experience vs the past (but still the best lifestyle)

St. Mary's is a great community program that has evolved and is moving up in the ranks.

UCD and Stanford still rank high in terms of reputation.

Good lifestyle:

UCSD still tops, but work to education value has changed

Best trauma:
USC and harbor UCLA

Best Sports:
Stanford

Best PEDs:
Davis without a doubt

Best Arthritis:
UCLA, UCSF, Stanford

Least academic (bonus points for some)
St. Mary's, Loma Linda

Cush lifestyle:

UCLA


Take all of this with a grain of salt as it is all second hand rumors.
16 years ago
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#54627
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you neglected to include Harbor UCLA
16 years ago
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#54626
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You're right, of course, that I'm stating what is obvious to most. The stress of preparing a final rank list is mounting, and I was getting annoyed with information that was not valid, yet still triggering some questions in the back of my mind. I guess what I'm advocating for is a "level of evidence" type of statement to let everyone know if the posted info is based on facts, expert opinion, or just pulled out of one's *ss (level 9). The rank I came up with is mostly level 9 in regards to the bottom half, and based on personal experience and faculty input for the top half. Realistically, just splitting hairs in terms of quality of education for the top half with each having a legit claim to being the "best". I'm looking for best fit at this point.
16 years ago
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#54625
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The fact that orthogate is an open forum makes your point about validity of opinions posted pretty much "common sense".
16 years ago
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#54624
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Based on this information, I update my ranking to:
UCSF>UCLA>Stanford>UCD>UCSD>UCI>USC>LL>St. Mary's>UCFresno
Again, these statements reflect the underinformed opinion of this poster and are not based on (hardly) any hard data. I certainly don't claim my ranking is more accurate or valid than anyone else's.
My main point is that much of the posted information, particularly in regards to ranking and/or choosing the "best of the west" in any subcategory, reflects opinons formed from very limited and often inaccurate data. Anyone taking this information with less than a gigantic grain of salt is kidding himself. That being said, the training at all of these programs (with the exception of UCFresno which is a complete unknown) is probably very good to excellent according to the faculty I have spoken with.
16 years ago
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#54623
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So My Loma Linda comment comes from the fact that I interviewed there and I rotated at Stanford. From a numbers stand point (after interviewing at various programs this year) Loma Linda out-operates (from a logged case load at the end of 5 years) every program I have been to. Happy now? lol
16 years ago
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#54622
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I can't take most of these posts seriously. On what basis can someone accurately rate a group of ortho programs? Does a resident/student in one program really know that much about any other program? Doubtful.
These posts should all start with the disclaimer "These statements reflect the underinformed opinion of this poster and are not based on any hard data".
If a post is written by a resident in a program, then I do find his/her opinion of that program's strengths/weaknesses valuable, even though there is a strong tendency is to defend one's own program. Similarly, info from a rotator who visited more than one program has value in regards to his/her impressions of those particular programs. Everything else is typically just hearsay and generally not worth the electronic ink spent on it. If you want to say something like program X has the best trauma experience, then back that statement up with some real facts or at least impressions from someone really "in the know".
In any case:
UCSF>UCLA>Stanford>UCD>UCSD>UCI>USC>St. Mary's>LL>UCFresno
BTW, these statements reflect the underinformed opinion of this poster and are not based on any hard data.
16 years ago
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#54621
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It is funny how no one ever mentions Loma Linda. They operate more than stanford does, but I do not know if they out-do Harbor or not. I have been at both programs.
16 years ago
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#54620
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In the efforts of full disclosure, I am a recent St. Mary's resident. there is a lot of just plain wrong information on this post. St Mary's, over the last three years has undergone an enormous 180. There are aspects of it which are cush - i.e. the 4 months at st marys, the fact that the attendings are not dicks, but I would not call it laid back, non academic etc. You have clearly spent no time there.

First, the operative experience in all aspects is solid. Tons of joints, sports,spine (though there is a fellow),phenomenal hand, considerable onc at kaiser, tons of both hot and cold trauma. the peds is the same as Davis and UCSF.

The academics/didactics has totally changes. It is now a purely attending run show in the mornings one day a week. The research has teamed up with UCSF. Per resident, we are putting out almost three papers per resident over 5 years, and it is growing. There are a lot of opportunities.

The clinic expereince at Highland/kaiser is great. A bit weak at St mary's but very informative to learn from attendings. At the other places you run your own show. The residents get fantastic fellowships and are very well respected wherever they go for their operative skills.

the probation issue is no longer an issue as the program received full accredation after their latest review in light of all these attendings. There are, in total, over 40 attendings you work with. They are fellowship trained in every specialty. Do they have big names...no. Instead of spending their lives inflating their careers, they do solid orthopaedics and then go home and spend time with their families like normal people. They love to teach. Nearly every one of my nearly 2000 cases in residency was either me and an attending or me and another resident. You will really come out a polished orthopaedist when you are done.
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